To wonder what happens when your boyfriend asks your father for your hand...

[PumpkinLatteMyArse]

And then he says no?

Do adults just not get married then?

Pa1oma but you talk bout women, who work, who post that their dps dont do anything at home earlier in the thread.

Dont you think there are as many women posting that their working husbands dont do anything as they are sahp they are expected to do it all?

You commented than women are expected work but feckless men dont pick up the slack. How is that better than a man who works, but doesnt pick up much at home?

You open judged women who worked and presumed their partners didnt do much work at home and said women now have it worse as they are expected to work.

You seem very contradictory. Make assumptions about set ups that are different from your own, then get touchy when people to the same to you

Personally, if you agree your partner should be a sahp, financially providing is the minimum you are doing. Parenting it much more than providing money.

lamp- I think you have misunderstood me tbh. I can’t judge anybody and whether they work or not is irrelevant.
It’s great that your DH naturally takes on as much as you do with your home and the kids.
What I was saying was that this is often not the case, even in situations when the wife works the same hours as the DH. She still somehow ends up doing most of the wife work and what MN call the “mental load.” Attitudes that lead to this state of affairs can be hard to shift.
That’s not “openly judging” anyone I’m saying that this is another way in which women sometimes get the short end of the stick.

The patriarchy and sex stereotyping is bad for men too. As feminists are saying all the time. Which is why we want people’s “mental furniture” not to leap to traditional roles in big and little ways. As, for example, men asking other men for permission to take possession of their daughters.

What I was saying was that this is often not the case, even in situations when the wife works the same hours as the DH.

But its often the case that men do very little and dont engage much when the woman is a sahp either. Look on mn and you will see threads of both working mums and sahms. But I don't presume being a sahm is bad for women. That's my point. Earlier in the thread you were talking about how it's not helped women to work because men dont pick up the slack. That's because those men are dicks. Not because they are men, but because they are dicks. Some men are dicks regardless of their partners employment status.

Nothing to do with feminism or women working. If anything women, still being cast in the homemaker and caregiver role, has more to do with it.

Of course working women sometimes get the short end of the stick. Just like some sahm do. Some working dads do and some sahd do too. That's nothing to do with feminism.

It's not great that exdh each alot at home. Its expected because we were partners. He is a dick, but in a different way.

However, my now dp isnt a dick at all and still does at least half, if not more housework. Because he works slightly less hours and because I have ds. Dp only drives a motorbike and I chose not to remove ds from his school when I moved area, post divorce. So I do the school run. Dp has offered if i move ds school that he will walk and pick him up. At the moment, neither me or ds wants that.

So dp does more at home so we get time with ds when we get in. Rather than doing housework. I do my share in bits or the weekend. It's not great, I am not lucky. It's our home, so we are both responsible. I took a break from work last summer dp still did plenty at home, even though he was the only one working. It's not a great that an adult does their fair share at home when both work. Its should be the norm.

Dp isnt DS' dad but still wants ds to have the best he can have. Ie time with me and time as a family.

I’m not really sure what your argument is here Lamp. Of course men who do nothing are men who do nothing, whether their wife works or not. Who would argue anything else?

What I was responding to is the constant MN mantra of, “You’re a SAHM. You are vulnerable. Get a job. Then you’ll be independent and equal.” I get tired of being told this because I don’t think I would feel any more independent or equal than I do now, just more knackered.

I think that one reason SAHMs are advised to consider working at least part time is to build some financial self-sufficiency. A woman who depends entirely on her partner for financial resources can be extremely vulnerable if the relationship breaks down, especially if they are not married.

My argument is that you take exception at people making assumptions about your dh and your family set up.

And yet earlier in the thread said that you dont think women are helped by working because the men dont pick up the slack.

The point is, that some men dont. Regardless of wether their partner works or not. So working, isnt impacting the women. It's the men that dont do anything that are impacting the women.

Your assumption that men, generally, dont pick up the slack when their wife works is as ridiculous as me saying 'if a woman is a sahp, the man often does nothing, has loads of hobbies, sees the wife as the default carer and doesnt change their lifestyle while the wife picks up all the housework and childcare'

A sahp is equal to the main eage earner. But unless they have their own wealth, they are not independent. Again, look at threads on mn where so many women are left in the shit they havent worked in years, cant get back their career and their husband has fucked off, totally out of the blue. CMS isnt as easy to claim, neither is long term spousal maintenance. So yes, I would urge any woman thinking of being a sahp, to think about and plan for that eventuality.

Yes but people who say, “Well your DH should be doing this and that” as if it’s the end-all-and-be-all of life - do they simply presume everyone has a job with defined hours, a job spec and a set location? What would they do if their DH was in Jordan this week and then Saudi the next, as mine is?

do they simply presume everyone has a job with defined hours, a job spec and a set location? What would they do if their DH was in Jordan this week and then Saudi the next, as mine is?

I would expect them to be fully engaged in family life when they return, doing plenty around the house as well. I expect their life here to be planned around the kids. Spend plenty of time with the kids, with them just parenting. Giving me a break from being the default carer and spending time with their kids.

Like adults do. I work all over the world. I am in the US in two weeks and Madrid after that.

I would also expect their wage to be enough that childcare could be provided so I could keep my hand in my career too.

I never wanted to use childcare. And no, I don’t think it’s reasonable to ask someone to vacuum or whatever when they’ve just got in, or come off a long flight. Of course he communicates with his kids though and spends as much time with them as possible. But I do try and make his life easier - why not? It works both ways.

Pa1oma, my husband is just back from Lagos, will be in London Thursday and Friday, and is off to Barcelona next week. But I also work FT in a demanding professional job too, was abroad last week myself, and probably need to be in Dublin for at least one day next week.

I have never regarded either of our jobs as more important, and I certainly don't see my role as picking up the slack for DH we simply need to be extra-organised, plan our diaries well in advance, arrange things around one another's commitments, and he sorts out extra childcare or arranges pick-ups if it's a time when I'm always at work, and he's not able to make it because he's away. He also does all of the cooking and laundry when he's at home and he works from home where possible -- and is as fully involved in homework, child-related admin, dental appointments, eye tests as I am etc.

I don't buy the 'DH is too busy and important and away too often to do household or child-related gruntwork' thing.

It if you were at home Bulb, you would find that more of that stuff falls to you.
I’m my case I have a cleaner i that’s not really an issue. But I do all cooking, school admin and pretty much everything else - admittedly. But that just makes sense as I have so much more time. Also, DH does not see me as less important and never has.

What I'm saying, Pa1oma is that having a demanding job in which you travel a lot is not incompatible with still doing your share of the household/child-related gruntwork, whatever your sex, unless you and/or your spouse have the attitude that nipping from Bahrain to Boston a lot somehow lets you off all kinds of hooks.

The fact that in our case there's no 'default' person, no one at home to pick up the slack no childcare we don't pay for, all family in our home country just highlights what is in fact manageable when work isn't an (often gendered) excuse for lack of involvement in household admin/childcare, and two people are equally committed.

And while we have usually had a cleaner come in once a week, she retired in the autumn and we haven't been able to replace her yet, so absolutely, we're both regularly getting off flights and stripping beds and making dinner and supervising homework with jetlag!

Well you sound like you have a great relationship Bulb. But I guess I’m not working and off here there and everywhere, checking diaries with DH etc, because we’ve made a decision to live differently to that.

Not using childcare is your choice though. You asked me what I would do.

So what does your husband do when he is home?

He has time for hobbies?

To be fair, if you are happy it's fine. But that doesnt stack up against your 'well working isnt helping women, because the man doesnt pick up the slack'.

Working helps women in all sorts of ways. The very least, being that they can choose to work.

This goes back to the mental furniture mentioned earlier. And it's this line of thinking that people object to.

As I said, I travel for work. I can manage to tidy up and run the Hoover round when I am at home. So its not that he cant. It's that the two of you choose not to. Which is fine. But pretending he cant or it's not fair is a bit daft.

Lamp - so if your DH was home all day, you’d be fine to come in and just start hoovering and cooking dinner for everyone?

I take the point that if DH was a single man he’d have to cook for himself etc. But he’s not. He’s working to financially support a family if 5 and our home, school fees and lifestyles and to take the pressure if me. So I think it’s only fair and reasonable that I take the pressure off him in the ways that I can.

Lamp - so if your DH was home all day, you’d be fine to come in and just start hoovering and cooking dinner for everyone?

Doing it all everyday? No. but doing half while I am at home, plus catching up with the kids, yes.

Again, does he have time for hobbies when at home?

I love my husband, Pa1oma, but no, I'd take issue with the idea that we have a 'great relationship' purely because he does his share, and, as I do, juggles childcare, family responsibilities and a demanding job.

I take the point that if DH was a single man he’d have to cook for himself etc. But he’s not. He’s working to financially support a family if 5 and our home, school fees and lifestyles and to take the pressure if me. So I think it’s only fair and reasonable that I take the pressure off him in the ways that I can.

To go back to the earlier point about mental furniture, I think the issue is why more men don't choose to be SAHPs, and why it continues to be seen as 'natural' for women to stop working or go PT as soon as they become parents, while men continue their professional lives as they did before they had children.

As I don't think anyone really thinks that some gland pings inside a woman as soon as she delivers the placenta which diminishes her commitment to her job, or that men are more 'naturally suited' to the workplace, we're back to social conditioning. I see so many married/coupled women on Mn saying 'we made this decision for the good of the family' or 'I can't afford to work because childcare eats my salary' or 'I can't work since we had children because DH is away a lot' ' or 'DH outearns me so it was obvious I would stay at home', but those aren't decisions/financial situations/prioritisations made in a cultural vacuum, more like a culturally enforced gender mandate.

Yes he has a lot of hobbies and some are quite extreme and take him away or overseas. But again, I don’t begrudge him this because why wouid I? He needs to unwind in his way. The kids have their hobbies which they enjoy. If DH comes home and asks how my day was and I tell him I’ve been swimming or for a run or a treatment, he’s only too delighted. He doesn’t begrudge me anything and never has. He works so that all our lives are easier and more relaxed.

There may well be a cultural enforced gender mandate Bulb and I totally accept that you would view my marriage as sexist, but the truth is, when it works, and you have mutual respect for each other, it works. The point of a marriage is to play to your strengths. Some couples are naturally more 50/50 and that works clearly. DH and I balance each other in a different way. My life has been a hell of a lot easier for having been with him and he appreciates being able to focus on his work and never worry about his kids being ok or working around me.

I think the big problem with the men for our to work women stay at home model (and I have fitted into that model quite often over the years) is the example it gives to children being brought up in it. I think you have to work very hard to model equality when you have that set up.

I am glad it works for you. I genuinely mean that. But no, as the travelling spouse in my marriage, i wouldn't then have hobbies that have me travelling away again. Because I am a parent. Parenting is more than providing finances. It's about being there. I am sorry but, while it may work for your marriage I cant agree he needs to travel for his hobby to wind down.

He doesnt really do anything at home, not because of work. But because of work and hobbies. No I couldnt live like that. When I chose to have kids, I chose to be with them as much as possible.

He bloody should be happy that you get time to yourself. That's not points for him. Nor is a great that peoples partners pull their weight at home.

He is exactly like the men to you mentioned earlier, that dont pull their weight. It's not actually surprising that he spoke to tyour dad. As was said before, these gestures often, not always, show what sort of marriage is expected.

I don't believe he can make time to travel for a hobby, but cant chip in when he is home.

My brother asked his FIL - well, I suppose he didn’t “ask” so much as let him know he was going to. The FIL was a bit “about bloody time”. I think he just thought it was nice.

DH didn’t ask my mother, but his mother went fucking mental that she hadnt been consulted as she didn’t approve.

He teaches karate on Sat mornings, but with DS and some of his friends. He plays rugby on Sun mornings if it’s on, but also takes DS to his rugby. He races cars about one day per month on average and several trips for that of 2-3 days a year. He is a massive cyclist, but he cycles to and from work, but he’s also going from Paris to Athens this year. Those are the main things he does outside work. But he does spend time hanging out with us as well obviously and he loves that. If he’s here, he’ll ovvioysly help with homework and he’ll give any of them a lift anywhere. If he had the chance to do a school pick up, he loved to do that. He would hoover or something if I asked him, but I wouldn’t ask him.

So it sounds like a lot, but on the other hand, I have from 9-3, 5 days a week, except obviously for school holidays, so I can do what I want. And when the kids are home, I love being with them. We go exploring weird bits of London and walk miles and I love rediscovering places through their eyes, or just hanging out. At the moment, one is going on GCSE study leave so I’ll be helping him with revision as much as I can.

But don’t some people have irregular schedules? Isn’t it a bit hard to organise who does hoovering, childcare etc if 1 Monday DP is here but not the next 2 and then DP is there again Thurs, Fri? I can understand why people would divide up jobs un-equally because it can be more efficient to have a routine. It might also be that the one travelling get less downtime than the sahp day to day so can make sense for them not to do as many ‘jobs’ when they are back. The hobbies I don’t understand though... but that’s a personal preference.

Does getting in childcare cause any feminist issues as often paid childcare/cleaning is done by women? In some countries with a high proportion of women working, affordable domestic labour (mainly women) enables this. This labour tends to be foreign and less well paid than other jobs (but highly paid for the women in their home countries).... just makes an interesting situation. Not necessarily bad though.