To wonder what happens when your boyfriend asks your father for your hand...

[PumpkinLatteMyArse]

And then he says no?

Do adults just not get married then?

If I wanted something different, then I would make it happen. There’s nothing stopping me

Well I’m that case you are very lucky and dare I say it, privileged. Because I know many MANY women who would love an interesting and well paid job that fits around their domestic responsibilities. Very few of them have it.

And yet I know hundreds of men who have such a job.

I wonder why that is.

I know dozens of women who wish their partner would do his share of housework and wifework. Yet hardly any of them do.

I wonder why that is.

And NONE of the single mothers I know have ex partners who do their share of the parenting or pay their share of the cost of raising their children.

I wonder why all these things are. It’s nothing to do with having a penis or XY chromosomes . There must be another reason.

So I’m very pleased for you that there’s nothing stopping you doing what you want. I wish most of the other women in the Uk were so fortunate.

And that’s without thinking about the millions of women around the world who have more things “ stopping them “ than women in the west.

But in the “sexist role” I have undertaken, I don’t think I’ve had any less freedom or choices than the next woman. I don’t think I’ve had less freedom than DH, He’s been constrained by his work; I’ve been constrained by the kids. There are pros and cons to every decision - that’s just life. But in a way, there’s more freedom when you can just focus on what comes more naturally to you. Nothing is ever perfect. If I’d been working, it would have been different, but I’m not sure if I would have actually been happier overall. I am going back to work within the next year or so anyway, so I guess I’ll find out.

Please note I am no compating slavery to asking for permission to marry. Simply talking about things that used to be traditional and now are concerned horrible.

If you are comparing then why bring it up as a comparison in response? If someone had asked the parents I think it’s a lovely and courteous thing to do. If they said no then ultimately you just don’t have any blessings. The response from the woman in question (or man) is ultimately the answer you go with. This tradition has just altered not something to be slammed to the ground. Not everyone does it, I didn’t really expect my husband to do it but he wanted to and my parents felt he was very respectful for doing so. If people don’t then oh well... just don’t think people should judge others who do when it’s no e of their business. Some comments on here need to be adjusted to ‘I wouldn’t like it because I would feel...’ rather than judge other people’s views.

I don't have any problem with your choice to be a SAHP, Pa1oma. I think it is a valid free choice for a woman to make. I do, however, worry about the vulnerabilities of such a position and wish that we had policies like free childcare to ensure that women were genuinely making a free choice and not a financially constrained one. I'd also like to see more protection for such women in cases of divorce. I hope your husband has a good life insurance policy, too, should the worst happen.

I think it's a separate issue, though, to the wedding one, which is (in many ways) much easier because it's about symbolism.

Yes I suspect you will find out Pa1loma. I hope it works out well for you.

If you are comparing then why bring it up as a comparison in response?

It says right in the bit you quoted. I am talking about things that used to be traditions, that are now seen as shocking. Saying something is a tradition, does not mean we should carry on doing it without questioning it.

But if you are determined to believe I am comparing slavery to this that's up to you. I am talking about the 'but its tradition' argument in general. Labelling something a tradition, doesnt mean it should carry on

He’s been constrained by his work; I’ve been constrained by the kids

Surely he is constrained by work AND the kids.

Lol DH would have been waiting a long bloody time for the answer! He’s been dead twenty years!

He told my mum he was going to marry me and asked for her blessing. He wouldn’t have given a flying fuck if she had said no. It was more I’m asking iveno to marry me, here’s the heads up.

Even radical feminists (sorry I’m not sure if this is the correct term) - they’re just conditioned to think another way as a response to the world we live in.

I'm not sure whether any of the posters on the thread would identify as radical feminists which, as you're probably aware, has a specific meaning which doesn't equate to 'militant' or 'far out' but I think it's fair to say that feminists in general have done a lot of work precisely on undoing their own social conditioning, which most, if not all of us are subjected to as children.

I was brought up in a deeply 'traditional' household where unthinking sexism was rife -- men were more important and should be listened to and served first with the best food; my mother never had a bank account or any access to money other than the 'housekeeping' my father handed her; no expectations whatsoever that men or boys would cook or do housework or childcare; no expectation that girls would have professional careers or anything other than a 'little job' until they married; that marriage was a girl's greatest achievement.

Obviously, I unpicked all that conditioning to believe such dangerous nonsense at the first opportunity. As it's everyone's duty to themselves to think about the unhelpful beliefs with which they were brought up, and recognise that these can, and should, be discarded.

“Surely he is constrained by work AND the kids.”

Well yes, but not nearly in the same way. Not in a practical sense, nor in the “day-in-day-out” sense that takes a strain kind of resilience, I think. He is good with them though and he’s worked extremely hard to find their education and there’s no denying that.

Anyway, back to the wedding topic ....

Even though I’m not religious, there can be something quite reassuring about certain church traditions at key times if life - birth, marriage, death. I guess it’s thst feeling that it kind of grounds you. You’re going through the rituals that millions have before you so there’s sense of comfort in that, somehow. I think this is why people (men and women) still gravitate towards certain traditions in all religions.

My first husband asked my Dad permission for my hand in marriage. My Dad replied, ‘ what are you asking me for, she’s sat right there! ‘
First of a long list of twatty middle class behaviour until we divorced several years ago.

“Certain kind of resilience” , not “strain” sorry.

But he would be constrained in the day in day out sense. He is a parent the same as you. So he needs to plan his time around the kids and you. Hobbies, annual leave, school events etc..

I am not religious either. I find not comfort in the traditions of religion. I had an entirely catholic education and studied theology. Religion and its use to control people, especially women and the picture they try and paint of women puts me right off.

Bulb - that’s totally understandable and, to use Bertrand’s analogy of the “mental furniture”, it’s not surprising that your mental furniture is where it is today.

I also had a very traditional upbringing, but my mother wasn’t unhappy. She worked hard, but then so did my dad and, if anything, my mother was the more influential character.

But so do agree that you can’t underestimate the impact of your childhood on how it affects your lens on the world. Even if you totally reject your past, you’re still reacting to it.

Also, I was just thinking about a wedding we went to last year. This was in LA, lots of high-fliers from all over the world. It was a Gujarati Hindu wedding and probably 95% of people there were from that community, which is surprising these days, given the couple are quite international. The bride and groom are both in their 30s, both lawyers, and the wedding was semi-arranged via families finding the “right” families, though obviously neither were forced into it.

Anyway, in the wedding ceremony, both sets of parents sit with the bride and groom and take an active part throughout. There is a part where the bride and groom walk around a fire joined by a rope. The groom leads the way for all of the circulars, except for the one about the home, when the bride leads.

At the end of the ceremony the bride and groom bend down in all fours and go around kissing the feet of all parents and PILs.

I could just imagine the MN thread on that custom “AIBU to refuse to kiss MIL’s feet?”

Pa1oma, I think you mean well, but that's patronising.

I am not 'reacting against my childhood', I have just stripped off its conditioning in order to live in a free and equal way. My mother was not remotely unhappy, either, and was certainly the more influential character, and both parents worked very hard -- she simply didn't know any better, any more than my father did. She has never learned to examine received ideas, and will go to her grave believing the same things she was taught as a child.

To grow up into mental adulthood, you need to be able to think analytically about your own conditioning, and strip away unhelpful and outdated beliefs, including anything that arises from an ideology that subjugates women.

I am not religious either. I find not comfort in the traditions of religion. I had an entirely catholic education and studied theology. Religion and its use to control people, especially women and the picture they try and paint of women puts me right off.

Snap, bar the studying of theology. Hard to avoid the conclusion that many major world religions are primarily concerned with controlling female sexuality.

“He is good with them though and he’s worked extremely hard to find their education and there’s no denying that”

I am constantly depressed by the low bar people set for men.

“I am constantly depressed by the low bar people set for men.”

Bertrand I quite like you on MN, but can you not see how that is potentially a very upsetting thing to say to “people.” You have to understand the context, surely you can see that?

I don’t and never did need anyone who does 50/50 of everything with me all the time. It would drive me mad tbh, having to be constantly negotiating who does what round the house. To be perfectly honest, if I need help, I just book the cleaner a few more hours and be done with it. I’m not going to be all “woe is me” about housework or turn it into a battleground. If DH was lazy as an individual, then that would be another matter (well I wouldn’t be with him full stop). As it is he’s the least lazy person I know. He’s ridiculously highly driven so I let him get on with it. You can’t change people. I’ve been happy to have the freedom to focus on the kids. That has suited me because I’m not good at trusting other people to do this. We’ve all benefitted from me being at home because we both think I’m better than a nanny, just as we’ve all benefitted from the money DH makes which I would never have made anything approximating to anyway as I wasn’t in that kind of industry. I do know that DH thinks about the kids all the time, just as all mums do when they’re at work. It’s still parenting because it gives the DC options and opportunities that I would never have been able to give them. People are suited to different things and this is how some couples work. Telling DH to get a 9-5 and come home and clean the bathroom was never going to happen frankly, and if I needed that kind of DH I wouldn’t have married the one I did. So no, I don’t think I set the bar low at all. He’s 100% honest and we understand each other and I don’t really know what else to say.

My mother was a very happy sahp.

She is very unhappy that I made a decision to work. My upbringing was conservative Irish catholic.

I never understood why aunts were assigned certain roles and uncles others. For example, Christmas morning, all the men would go to the pub while women prepared dinner and looked after the kids.

As I got older, there wasnt a chance I was staying and doing the dinner every year either we all chip in or take it in turns. In the end, I stopped going at all.

Why I didnt follow their train of thought, I dont know. Maybe because studying theology helped when I noticed how oppressive religion was to women.

IMO men also sexism daily..

In my example my partner is my carer, he has to take care of our children and me 24/7. He had to give up his job. I had a large sum of compensation, after a horrific accident..so I was the one with the money.

He has been ridiculed for years because of this.

'You do all the cleaning and cooking?'
'You look after the children all the time?'
'You do the food shop?!'
'Why haven't you got a job?!'
'Not very manly, your role in life is it?!'
'Not manly, living off your partner is it?!'

These are a very small amount of comments, that my DH faced when we moved in together and had our first child. Years later he still has these comments thrown at him, from both men and WOMEN!

At one point it effected his mental health dreadfully. Thank God over the years, he has hardened up to these comments.

I have had to explain to everyone, that when we decided to have our first child, my money became ours. His assets became mine. We are a team.

You would think in today's world none of these things would be a big deal..but sly comments from both sexes, still get thrown at us.

Is that fair to men in today's world?

Sorry slight derail but I would like your opinion on how you feel about that in today's world

Sun - I’m sorry to hear about your condition. Your DH sounds amazing to be honest and yes, I do think it’s very difficult for men in many ways that women don’t have to worry about. For instance, when I go to the school pick up later, it will be 99% mums there at 3.30 in the afternoon. That says it all. My DH happened to be working from home the other day and he went out for a coffee at about 11.30. He was accosted by a woman I know locally, “Oh my god, did you lose your job?” she asked him. That’s how rare it is to see DH’s at large where we live during the day! I don’t think life is necessarily easier for men at all and in many ways they face greater prejudice when they step out of traditional roles.

I don’t think life is necessarily easier for men at all and in many ways they face greater prejudice when they step out of traditional roles.

Yes men are often criticized and made fun of when they take on roles in society that are traditionally female because those roles are considered lesser. It is just another side of misogyny. One of the aims of feminism is to diminish and eventually eliminate sex and gender based assumptions and expectations about the roles of women and men in society.

Sun, that's a perfect example of how the patriarchy does no favours to anyone.

Patriarchal norms presuppose male dominance as 'natural', and see women as 'naturally' in unpaid caring roles be that looking after children or adults who need care but view men in those roles as weak and unmasculine, particularly if they 'let' their wives support them economically.

There was a big US study a few years back which you can probably find by googling, about the life dissatisfaction level of male carers/SAHPs, which apparently was very high (and they were also the group most likely to have affairs, it was suggested as a way of reclaiming some of that lost 'masculinity' in social terms).

And of course male mental health and suicide rates are also a side effect of rigid gender norms, which still present normative masculinity as strong and silent, and make men less likely to seek help, express their emotions, cry etc.

Men as well as women need to extricate themselves from the toxic effects of patriarchy.

Is that fair to men in today's world?

No it's not. Set roles, for both sexes isnt fair on men or women. I said that earlier in the thread.