To wonder what happens when your boyfriend asks your father for your hand...

[PumpkinLatteMyArse]

And then he says no?

Do adults just not get married then?

That was in response to your post of 21.23.

“I don’t find misogyny, selfishness or incompetence of any kind attractive”

Well neither do I

Is it that difficult to understand that not everyone defines themselves by their degrees or job spec? My degrees are neither here nor there to me.

I was always a people person. What motivates me is real people and direct work. I was working with other people’s choldren and families anyway. Why wouldn’t I want to focus on my own when the time came?

I’m sorry you see this as an affront to feminism, but it was the most natural thing in the world for me. I get it’s not for everyone, but why would I care about that?

Paloma, your posts prove you do find misogyny attractive. You're just not prepared to acknowledge that the acts that put you front and centre of attention are inherently misogynistic

What “acts that put me front and centre of attention?”

Fiancé talking to your father re marriage. Father giving you away? Father and husband making speeches all about you? Maybe you didn't have all of this but I believe vanity trumps principles for some women.

Well maybe my principles are slightly different? Or maybe I have my own reasons for doing things? Imagine that!

And who isn’t centre of attention on their wedding day?

This thread is getting crazy now.

You're either in for your daughters Paloma, or you're out.

How can you have extrapolated so much from that?

No one is extrapolating anything from a converstation that happened 18 years ago.

They are reading what you have said in the thread.

We may not agree. I respect your choice to be a sahm. You have thought about it and planned and ensured theres no way, your dh can leave you in the shit. Which I what I think we should all do.

However, if your husband was not a high earner you wouldn't be in that position. That's my point. Most people are not high earners. In a society where women feel, they shouldnt work because it would reflect badly on their dh, or they will be judged for choosing a career over sahm (because that's the role patriachy assigned them), or women feel the only way to show respect is to get their partner to seek permission to marry......they are not in your position.

They could get divorced, have no career prospects (not everyone can afford a second MA) find it difficult to get back into work after a larger gap, they dont get a huge pay out from a house. There maybe be some money in the house but they dont get it all or it's not enough to buy again.

Making women feel they have to make certain choices because of their or their partners culture, doesnt work for most women.

I also disagree that abuse, cheating, bullying, financial abuse, child abandonment is any less likely in a culture like yours.

As I said, my husband had a breakdown, no one could have predicted it. He became dangerous and me and the kids had to flee the property. Having a job didnt mean that was easy. It did mean I could rent a house until the house sold. All made longer by my husbands mental health. He is well now, I know he carrys alot of guilt.

If I hadnt worked I would have been on a friends couch for a year instead. With the kids.

That's the reality. If I had gone along with MY families culture, I would have been screwed. That why I think women should always think about the what ifs and worst case scenarios. My mum had several divorces. The immediate family supported her but the wider community of our culture didnt. I saw her get screwed over. Which is why I would never be in that position. I feel lucky that I experienced that with her.

Despite her experiences, her need to fit in with the community of her culture, led her to try and fit me into same position she was in. A sahm, a supporter of a high earning man etc.

And yes, I am not part of the community of my culture anymore. Because their values are patriarchal. Yes I am no longer in contact with them. I chose my values over my culture and family.

And I am glad I did. I have a daughter on the brink of adulthood heading for a career as an engineer. That would have been fine, in my family and culture, but pointless as she would be having it up to have kids. The fact that she probably wont, wouldn't have been. She in turn would feel that it was a judgment on her and her future dh to continue to work. So I removed her from those influences. And I am glad I did.

Lets be honest, working women are judged too. I have faced derogatory comments from many people. Sadly mainly women. Men, I worked with, were actually the one that either didnt care or were openly supportive. I found women, that had been sahms and come back to work, openly and publically judged me. Women who didnt have kids, hated that I finished at 4 and work from home or that I was still seen as committed despite not being in the office as much as others.

After a long and huge post, what I am saying is that in a patriarchy, the choices a woman has arent always choices. They feel they are rejecting their culture, if they do what they want. That's not ok and that's not good for women.

I want to see women being free to chose to be at home or not based on what they want and what works for their family. You wanted to be a sahm and it works for you. That's great. But pretending that's the case for everyone, is burying your head in the sand.

When discussing feminism and patriarchy, most people are looking at women as a whole. Not saying, well it works for me so patriachy is better than the alternative.

lamp - I don’t disagree with your post and I don’t know why you think I would. You’ve been talking with me a few days now - Do you really think I wouid take the view, “well it works for me, so patriarchy is better than the alternative...”

I don’t even see myself as living in “patriarchy”. No more than the next woman anyway.

I spent years working with disadvantaged women and children. I also come from a less liberal society. It would simply be impossible for me to take that view.

Of course I realise the context for the choices I have made and I have said this repeatedly. If my income would have been significant in recent years, or I was worried about the scenario in the case of divorce, I wouid have made different choices. This is obvious.

Of course there are women in the world in poverty or whose lives a very limited by religious / cultural structures. But that’s not to say a woman should not choose to be a SAHM in the UK - ever, under any circumstances.

There are principles and the there is instinct. My instinct was to be with my children and for me, that was more compelling than anything else I’ve ever felt in my life.

Yet If I say that, you will say, “Well because you wanted to be a SAHM, you are saying all women should want to do this....etc” I’m not saying that at all! Women are hardly of one mindset and I would applaud any woman who enjoys or takes pride in her career. I’m just being honest about myself and what drove me to where I am, as you are being honest about the factors that drive you.

If women can’t be honest for fear of being shot down as “anti-feminist”, “in or out”, then progress will be stalled because it’s not taking account of the full spectrum of women’s motivations.

I feel very sad on this thread that so many conclusions are jumped to though about SAHMs or people from ME backgrounds. There is the image, but then there are the real individuals. I’m not saying “patriarchal systems are better”. What madness is that? I just think things are not black and white, it’s shades of grey, and if people stop getting on their high horse, maybe they can learn that there are other perspectives. There are other ways to view the world, relationships and life. It’s not that you have to abandon feminist principles, but it’s just adding extra layers of understanding maybe?

Paloma, your perspective and motivations and layers are all well and good, but they'll never bring about change. For real change, we do need a black and white approach. You may not be personally motivated to see a change but can you understand why those who are see your views as unhelpful?

I wouldn’t know, because when I proposed to DW I really wasn’t interested in what her parents thought. The only yes or no unneeded was from my girlfriend - now wife.
It’s a bizarre notion, asking parents, and as a gay woman one of the many, many things I don’t need to give consideration to thank god in my relationship.

Do you really think I wouid take the view, “well it works for me, so patriarchy is better than the alternative...”

Yes I do.

I don’t even see myself as living in “patriarchy”. No more than the next woman anyway.

Except for you saying that in your DHS culture he would be judged for you working, Male relatives would be stepping to to strong arm a man who has slept with a female relative etc.

Of course there are women in the world in poverty or whose lives a very limited by religious / cultural structures. But that’s not to say a woman should not choose to be a SAHM in the UK - ever, under any circumstances.

There are women in the UK in these circumstances and it's not ok for any women to live like that. Also no one said a woman should never be a sahm. I said the opposite.

I didnt say you said all women should e sahm. However you dont seem clued up on women who arent a sahm. Like you comments saying 'so you all went back when your children were 6 months'. You didnt really respond when people said they did. Out of choice.

You can be honest. But on a discussion thread you will be challenged. You may not be saying all women should be sahm. However, you cant seem to understand that other women are damaged by people pretending the patriachy is or could be beneficial to women.

Just because it doesnt negatively impact you, doesnt make it beneficial.

Feminist choices are not the same now as 100 years ago. Societies evolve. As people gain new freedoms, this is likely to throw up other complex choices for them to negotiate. Change is not linear. If you are too blinkered and dogmatic, you risk alienating people or a backlash.

lamp - to be honest, I think you’re just going to believe whatever you want to believe, regardless of anything I say.

You have a fixed idea of the type of man my husband is and I don’t think you’re going to get past that.

You have decided I don’t understand anything, so that’s that really, isn’t it.,

Feminist choices are not the same now as 100 years ago. Societies evolve. As people gain new freedoms, this is likely to throw up other complex choices for them to negotiate. Change is not linear. If you are too blinkered and dogmatic, you risk alienating people or a backlash.

Societies evolve? Apart from mens genetic need for power, though?

No not challenging it and accepting it, ends in no change. The people who have changed things are the people with the drive to do so and believe in their principles

I have an idea of your husbands culture from what you have wrote. Though it's worth pointing out I am not tall just about ME culture. I come from a very patriarchal culture that is not ME too.

You have decided I don’t understand anything, so that’s that really, isn’t it.,

No thats not it. I just whole heartedly disagree with you. I believe you dont really understand women choosing to have a career AND kids. Some of your comments have come across as though people like me dont really exist.

lamp - there is no point in reducing everything to a binary level all the time.

You keep saying to me - “Just because the patriarchy has worked for you, doesn’t mean it will work for everyone.”

I mean, what can I say to that?

I don’t even accept the premise of what you’re saying in the first place. I’m hardly living the “patriarchal dream”.

The point is, I made the choice to live this way. And no, that choice was not made in a vacuum (before you remind me of that). But whose choices are made in a vacuum? It is what it is.

Its like me saying to you, “Well going back to work obviously benefitted you and this was your choice, but why can’t you see that if all women were forced to go back to work this may restrict women’s ability to be with their children?” or “Yes you had this choice, but some women are forced into work because of patriarchal capitalist structures.”

But I wouldn’t say this because it’s a ridiculous argument. You did what you thought was right for you. Simple. I’m not threatened by your choice or your attitudes. In your position, I might well have done the same. In my position, who knows what you would have done. Women telling other women what they should do, or should feel is ridiculous.

And what on earth are you talking about when you say I don’t understand why a woman wouldn’t want to have a career and kids? Seriously? What is there not to understand?

It’s you that doesn’t understand my life choice. Or you feel threatened by it?

Except I am not telling you what you shouldnt or shouldnt do.

You have spent pages taking about how you dint think equality always helps women, that the culture your dh is from wouldn't allow a man to walk away from his child, that men are genetically inclined to want power, it's not a social problem, its genetics so trying to change that wouldn't work etc

You have spent alot of time arguing why your way is the right way.

I dont want to see women not being able to sahm. I want them to have a genuine choice. A choice not influenced by what the in laws will think.

It's odd that you say about women being forced to work. Wouldn't you say your husband is forced to work?

It’s you that doesn’t understand my life choice. Or you feel threatened by it?

Neither. I dont agree that it naturally follows that a patriachy is better for women

I’m not saying patriarchy is better for women.

That is your interpretation because you are hell bent on interpreting everything I say in binary terms.

I’m saying that if we follow your vision of feminism to it’s logical conclusion, there may be another set of problems involved.

If the default for women was that we should aspire, above all, to value ourselves within the patriarchal capitalist system - ie. no concessions made for the fact we are the childbearing sex; no recognition if biological differences, etc etc, then this is just imposing another level of restriction in which women will be disadvantaged.

I can only speak for myself. If feminism only values women in terms of their economic output and ability to conform within male capitalist structures, then I’m not a feminist.

What I would want is a feminism that can tolerate the fact that some women feel a biological urge to be with their children that supercedes the urge to be economically active. If feminism can’t recognise this, then in my view it will never succeed because it’s too shallow. It’s just replacing one set of patriarchal values with another lot (ie capitalism).

For me, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Women should be able to negotiate whatever works best for them - find their own balance. Recognise we all want slightly different things and that’s ok. No the system is not perfect and possibly never will be, but you can tolerate different perspectives within a spectrum it can be helpful.

When I tell you that in some cultures, such as DH’s, a man providing for his family is an expectation, I don’t mean to say that I think this is necessarily right. I’m just putting it out there as a perspective because this is a discussion board. Obviously, that attitude is restrictive for men and women. But I was comparing it to the way this country seems to be heading in which so many fathers take no moral responsibility whatsoever for their children - because equally, this is not ideal either. The reality is it’s women who are literally left holding the baby. So I’m trying to compare perspectives to show that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. If I offer a perspective you don’t need to interpret it literally.

Thanks insanity - you’re right.

Your are engaging in discussion with someone who has said repeatedly,discussion=disrespect

Where?