To wonder what happens when your boyfriend asks your father for your hand...

[PumpkinLatteMyArse]

And then he says no?

Do adults just not get married then?

I don’t understand the “taking a stand on unimportant issues” thing. This particular issue barely passes through my brain from one year to the next. But it’s what the thread’s about and the OP invited opinion. It’s hardly being “strident” or “militant” or “ranting” or any of the other words that go so nicely with “feminist” to express an opinion!

sorry I don’t think I made myself clear. I meant taking a stand by DH not asking DF. Hehe - believe it or not family disputes can be like ww3 (obvs not literally)!

So you think, it you are woman who really disagree with this, you should let it go and and let it happen as to not alienate people?

Or the man in this, who disagrees should just go along with he because his father in law has some sexist views? He should just suck it up?

Because we dont want to be seen as militant or upset people, incase it scares them off feminism?

I havent talked about this issue for years. I am now because that's what the thread is about. If people wanted to talk about it in real life I would hive the same opinion. But it's never come up. People are getting offended, using world like militant, asking if we challenge people on these issues in real life. We have been called raging, and likened to the mythical women who shout at men for simply holding a door open.

All because we have engaged on an open forum in a discussion. Posters are ok to com and post here about not it's not sexist, damaging to women, shows good family values and respect and we should remain quiet incase we scare them away from feminism?

I genuinely dont get that thinking.

I don’t get offended by anyone on here because, as you say, it’s a discussion board. I’ve never called anyone militant either.

The conflict I have is that I understand acutely where a lot of traditions stem from. I think some posters feel they need to enlighten others about this, but really they don’t. Not in my case anywatmy. However, at the same time, I have to be honest and ask myself, “Would my life have actually been better without x,y,z traditions?” and the answer is no. So this is what interests me in these debates.

I don’t get offended by anyone on here because, as you say, it’s a discussion board. I’ve never called anyone militant either.

I wasnt referring specifically to, but about the whole thread.

The conflict I have is that I understand acutely where a lot of traditions stem from. I think some posters feel they need to enlighten others about this, but really they don’t. Not in my case anywatmy. However, at the same time, I have to be honest and ask myself, “Would my life have actually been better without x,y,z traditions?” and the answer is no. So this is what interests me in these debates.

And the rest of us understand where traditions come from. I am sure most know that you know where they came from. What we disagree is that, that origin still matters today. And that taking part isnt helping equality. I also disagree it's a sign of respect, it would only be respect if the father believes he has the right to be asked. If he doesnt believe that it's not respect.

Also your life would be better, but would it be worse?

If and if women didnt except sexist practises under the guise of tradition, then maybe life would be better for women all over.

lampshade - I think many women might describe the day they were proposed to, given the ring, or the whole white dress / flowers / wedding shebang as some of the best, most memorable moments if their lives. Anyone these days can sit down, decide to get married, go to the registry office and it’s done. And that’s absolutely fine, of course. I don’t even think many men are bothered about wedding dresses and such traditions - it’s the women that push for these things, simply because it’s fun. I think these traditions persist more because they are what women want - it’s fun, it’s romantic, memorable, etc. As I said, not all life can be reduced to logic because humans want more out of life than that.

But the questions are do you need these things to have a fun wedding?

If you want these things, fine. But other people dont, because of their origins. Denying the origins or saying the origins dont matter to women in general, so you can enjoy them is different.

As is making these traditions something to aspire to, or making out that they show superior values or marriages.

It's also worth exploring why women want these. Especially with the advent of social media. As that is a huge impact too.

My father would say "No, absolutely not. I can't believe you came and asked me, as if my daughter is a chattel, rather than a woman with her own mind. You're clearly not suited to her, and I will be letting her know about your behaviour and encouraging her to think twice before marrying a neanderthal".

“it’s the women that push for these things, simply because it’s fun.”

Yes, I can see it might be fun. But it’s also what women are conditioned into wanting from babyhood-romantic proposals, fairytale wedding......There are threads on here about people being disappointed in the proposal not “being right”. What’s that about? It’s another of the no decision made in a vacuum things, isn’t it?

Those saying that it is outdated and knocking tradition, I wonder if you allow your father to walk you down the aisle to give you away? Or did you walk by yourself?
Absolutely ridiculous how traditional values are slandered so much. Get a grip.

“Absolutely ridiculous how traditional values are slandered so much. Get a grip.”

What do you mean by “values”?

I think many women might describe the day they were proposed to, given the ring, or the whole white dress / flowers / wedding shebang as some of the best, most memorable moments if their lives. Anyone these days can sit down, decide to get married, go to the registry office and it’s done. And that’s absolutely fine, of course. I don’t even think many men are bothered about wedding dresses and such traditions - it’s the women that push for these things, simply because it’s fun.

Unpick this. Why are women, and not men, socialised to think that being proposed to, or getting married, is their crowning achievement? Why are women socialised to invest heavily in a white dress and wedding 'traditions', and the men they are marrying are not?

Why has the 'traditional' response to a couple announcing an engagement been women cooing over the woman's ring, and men joking with the man about 'putting his head in the noose'?

Why are there so many posts on the relationships forum from women desperate to marry longterm partners who dangle a proposal in front of them like a reward that's never forthcoming, but male-dominated forums don't have a plethora of men desperate to marry uninterested or insufficiently-committed longterm partners?

DH asked me. I said yes. Thought we should tell the darling parents and DH did say to my DF "if I may". They were thrilled. We all went out for a couple of hours - had stuff to do and they had stuff to do. We got back first to find they'd downed a bottle of champagne and when they came in had bought him a panama hat!

Nicely put, @TheBulb.

It is all conditioning.

Excellent post TheBulb.

Those saying that it is outdated and knocking tradition, I wonder if you allow your father to walk you down the aisle to give you away? Or did you walk by yourself?

If you read the thread we have already been over this.

Absolutely ridiculous how traditional values are slandered so much. Get a grip.

What are the values you are talking about?

And also lots of traditions have gone. Because they needed to. You know, like slavery, or women not being allowed their own bank accounts. All traditions, all seen as traditional and fine at one point but not anymore.

Please note I am no compating slavery to asking for permission to marry. Simply talking about things that used to be traditional and now are concerned horrible.

DH didn't ask, because it's my damn hand

"I wonder if you allow your father to walk you down the aisle to give you away? Or did you walk by yourself?"

No, my father did not give me away.

Why on earth would I want to invoke the serious and historical oppression of women at my wedding. What people don't seem to realise is how much terrible suffering is involved here. Women were tortured, were beaten, were locked up in asylums, were cheated on repeatedly and infected with venereal disease without any recourse to divorce, were raped in marriage, and were robbed of all of their money by husbands who fecklessly gambled it away. Why on earth would I want that symbolism in my special day - why would I want to have guests thinking about that (because every wedding I've been to where those things are invoked, that's what I think about while the bride is processing down the aisle)?

“It’s all conditioning”

Again, I fully recognise the point about conditioning. I’m from a quite traditional background, so of course this has influenced me to a large extent.

I’m acutely aware of all this and in the past it’s angered me a lot. I rejected religion a long time ago because I see it as misogynistic. I’ve explored it in therapy and I challenge my own perspectives pretty much all the time.

Yet despite all this, I don’t think I would want a world in which men and women had to fit into the same roles to be seen as equal. That would feel restrictive for me, as well as quite arbitrary and fake. I prefer that DH and I are comfortable enough with each other that we can accept our differences, but not feel undermined by them. This feels more natural to us and it’s the way we’ve always related.

So what Im saying is (I think) is that you can’t begin from the standpoint that all women want the same thing. Even with millennia of psychological and social conditioning stripped away, can you be really sure of what they would want and would it be your vision of equality?

No-one is saying men and women have to be the same to be equal or that all women want the same thing. What we are saying is that the symbolism is absolutely horrible and that it's difficult for us to understand why anyone would want it at their wedding, any more than they would want people dressed up in KKK uniforms with burning crosses or in Nazi regalia or in uniforms that were meant to recall colonial repression, or whatever miserable piece of history you want to pick. Many, many women suffered financially, educationally, politically, professionally, in physical and emotional ways, because they were treated as second class and those rituals are the embodiment of that.

You want a traditional marriage.

How great that you get to choose that.

It's great that I get to choose to have a career. It's great that I get to do things such as kickboxing and car racing. It's great that Dp doesnt feel emasculated because I earn more than him. It's also great that i could walk away from an abusive prick with full financial independence.

These choices are there, because of people challenging tradition and challenging that traditions do not equal good family values.

If a woman wants to be a sahm that's up to them. If they asked my opinion I would encourage them to think about all the downsides. Practically and financially. The decision is theres to make. But I wont pretend, it's not got risks. If asked my opinion.

If a friend was planning in go straight back to work. I would discuss the pros and cons. Practically and financially.

If either felt like they just should do what they are doing because its expected. I would try and explore that with them. Again, if asked.

PaIoma- if I may use your experience as an example. It seems to me that your dh following tradition was an actively worse way of dealing with a tricky situation than a more “modern” approach. And, coincidentally, sidelined two women.

For me, it’s all about what I call “mental furniture”. It’s like when someone says something sexist or racist in the heat of the moment and then apologises by saying “it just slipped out”. Well, if it wasn’t t part of their mental furniture then it wouldn’t be there to slip out, would it? It’s the same with these sexist traditions. If they are in our minds as OK, it means that at some level, we think it’s OK to have sexist attitudes and to treat women in a paternalistic way.

Lampshade - well yes, there are obvious risks in being a SAHM, but maybe not, depending on the overall family financial situation. In any case, it’s still a valid choice, in my view.
Yes I’m delighted that women do have the choice these days (in this country at least).
But when you are told that you “should” make a different choice - eg to go out to work - that if you don’t do this you are “unequal”, “enabling patriarchy” and if only you could “see” what we see, etc, etc, then that is where I do switch off to be honest because it’s just replacing one set of expectations with another set. I prefer to just find my own way in the context of my own relationship which nobody forced me to be in. If I wanted something different, then I would make it happen. There’s nothing stopping me.

Bertrand - yes that’s an interesting way of putting it. I realise DH has “mental furniture”. Don’t we all though? Even radical feminists (sorry I’m not sure if this is the correct term) - they’re just conditioned to think another way as a response to the world we live in.

No one is saying you “ should “ do this.

They are suggesting that you look critically at the pros and cons of each choice.

And also asking yourself “ if being a SAHP with babies and young children is such a great choice in the long term, why aren’t more men doing it?”.

It’s always worth thinking about who are the winner and losers in each situation and why that is.

well yes, there are obvious risks in being a SAHM, but maybe not, depending on the overall family financial situation. In any case, it’s still a valid choice, in my view.

Yes in my view too. That's exactly what I said. The majority of sahm, are vulnerable in the event of a divorce. But as I said, if asked my opinion, I will give it. But the choice to be a sahm, is theirs.

The problem is, no one is saying you shouldnt have done these things. What they are saying is that by doing them, you are buying into sexist attitudes. Sometimes we all do. But there is a difference between recognising that and trying to come up with an argument about why it's not sexist. and on top of that, make it appear the superior choice.

You may be happy with you and dh taking 'traditional roles'. But most women to be able to be whatever they want and not have an assigned role at all.