To wonder what happens when your boyfriend asks your father for your hand...

[PumpkinLatteMyArse]

And then he says no?

Do adults just not get married then?

If my husband had asked for my dad’s permission to marry me, it would have meant that he had completely failed to think about how I would feel about being treated, even symbolically, as chattel. That either he had fundamentally misunderstood one of the principles most important to me, or that he’d understood and thought, fuck it, I’ll do it anyway. Dealbreaker either way, for me.

Anyway, hello sister MILITANT FEMINISTS! Sometimes venturing outside FWR is a depressing experience.

Classic MN- in real life everyone still does this and tbh

If your real life is in 1819 you might have a point. In 2019 not so much.

Maybe we're all feminist bots who don't exist outside of Mumsnet?

@Thirtyrock39

What on Earth are you talking about?

Dismissing a view as classic Mumsnet as it’s not your view is incredibly condescending

I just rang them and said I'm getting married.

It wasn't necessary to hold an engagement party/stick a photo on facebook/have dh beg permission.

I just rang them and said I'm getting married.

Same here. DH and I lived some distance from my parents at the time so we called.

tbh I would think them a bit spineless and not arsed about future in laws if they didn't

What's 'spineless' about not going along with an anachronistic tradition from the days of dowries and before the Married Women's Property Act, where the fiancé and father discussed whether the fiancé could afford to 'keep' a wife who was assumed not to have any earning capacity, and how much money the father would settle on her?

It's a token gesture - often done after the proposal and lets face it a lot of weddings and marriage traditions are pretty sexist and very old fashioned - wearing white, the vows, giving away, veils etc

That's why a lot of people no longer do those things. Or proposals.

I wave militantly at you, Doobigetta.

I didn't ask dhs mother for permission (she'd have happily given me him though ) but I don't see how that makes me spineless.

Surely its more spineless to go along with a pointless tradition, that you dont care what the answer is, knowing its a sexist gesture...just cause your girlfriend or her dad thinks you should.

Well would you rail against someone wearing a white dress for their wedding?
What about someone who goes to Church at Christmas to sing hymns about the Virgin, etc.
Basically you could take exception to anything.

Well would you rail against someone wearing a white dress for their wedding?

If there converstation happening about it, I would give my opinion on it. You know like is happening here

I grew up catholic and have a big dislike of organised religion. So, again, if someone wanted to have the conversation or talk about this, yes I would give them my opinion

Why are the feminists 'railing' and 'militant'.

It's a discussion thread people are putting their views across.

Just to reassure people, i don’t go picketing weddings and spray painting wedding dresses.......

We could do sit down protests in church. We could really piss of MN posters by bringing children to no children weddings

Just to reassure people, i don’t go picketing weddings and spray painting wedding dresses.......

Nor do I, but I will admit to a look of shock and disdain sad disappointment if the bride promises to obey. Luckily, it hasn't happened for a long time.

I do. When the groom throws the bride's garter I lie in wait and then throw my burning bra into the crowd.

Mytaxi: 1
The patriarchy: 0

Believe it or not, despite my DH’s behaviour in certain aspects of life, I do count myself as a feminist at core and I don’t actually disagree with anything you’re saying - in principle. As I said, I see it all for what it is, but maybe emotional factors and real-life relationships have superseded some of those principles in my case. You have to be honest with yourself. There’s sometimes a difference between what you “want” to choose as opposed to what you think you “should” choose, if that makes sense.

These days, if it was a wedding or Christmas mass, I tend to be more concerned about the turkeys killed or other meat that may be involved, rather than what the women are doing. But I don’t really say anything about it to anyone.

All feminists make un feminist choices at some point it is impossible to not do so.

But the problem is that we can't discuss them without people being personally offended. If you had started with that post I doubt anyone would have argued with ut.

Pa1oma you seem to be assuming we would have a go at a woman at work who says her dp asked her father for her hand in marriage. I would lose my job for a start and she hasnt asked my opinion. Yes I am willing to put my job and my families financial well being in front of tell a woman it's a sexist practice.

Or publically scold a woman in a white dress. We dont. But this is a discussion board. This is what we are doing....discussing.

I am not so sure you are happy that we all live different lives. You seemed to believe that most of us didnt work. Or that we only did, not because we want to, but because we felt we should. You claimed feminism is taking something away from women without giving back....because some people post on mn about their lazy husbands (despite the fact that a lot of sahm also moan about the same thing).

No one has once said you have to do what we think is 'right'. Its your life. You invited opinions when you enter a discussion thread on it and started telling people why you believed they were absolutely wrong to see a sexist practice as, sexist.

Do as you wish. But dont pretend it's not sexist at its core.

I cant imagine any of us would go a wedding take the bride to one side and say 'not being funny, but given away? White dress? Garter?.......really?'

Not offended - just think die hard feminists have bad priorities! I guess that’s why a lot of the general public aren’t really ‘feminists’ (even though they would support legal equality etc).

Taking a stand on non-important issues and alienating non-feminist relatives is not v productive IMO. There is an argument that the success of feminism in UK was more due to women’s roles in WW1 war effort than militant acts.

So some women, dont reallyvthink about feminism, that's the fault of feminists?

What do you mean taking a stand on non important issues?

Firstly this is a discussion thread, we are discussing it. Not one is taking a stand. We arent marching to parliament to stop this happening.

You blame us for alienating women? So on a discussion thread, we shouldnt comment or give our opinion is case we upset or scare away other women?

Sounds very much like you think feminists shouldnt espress their opinion at all.

Of course war effort made a difference. That's not the whole story though.

It may be a small issue to you or to most of us. But it's the topic being discussed here.

I guess that’s why a lot of the general public aren’t really ‘feminists’ (even though they would support legal equality etc).

What do you think a feminist is?

Sorry, how do you define "feminist"? (Mustn't forget the passive-aggressive quotation marks).

Taking a stand on non-important issues

I think the problem here is that we all have our own understanding of what's important. I think that it's important to demonstrate that we have moved on from the times when women were regarded as men's property and had few legal rights or protections of their own, being passed from their father's control to their husband's.

You don't, and are happy to maintain traditions which perpetuate that time.

@putthatlampshade - sorry I don’t think I made myself clear. I meant taking a stand by DH not asking DF. Hehe - believe it or not family disputes can be like ww3 (obvs not literally)!

It depends what feminism wants to achieve. If people want to get others on board and change things, working with people constructively can be useful. I know people from my culture who hold sexist views yet would in some areas in life be more egalitarian than so-called feminist couples (eg take on more house work than their wives, do more childcare). They are 1st gen immigrants who also had to deal with racism, language issues etc. And considering how they were brought up - are pretty fair in treating the sexes equally (if not perfect).

Obvs with people you know, acting militantly might persuade them. Or maybe you don’t care about persuasion?

There have always been reactionary women who were actively hostile to women’s equality, though — the Women’s Anti-Suffrage League campaigned for women not to be given the vote between 1908 and 1918.