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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder what happens when your boyfriend asks your father for your hand...

753 replies

PumpkinLatteMyArse · 27/04/2019 19:13

And then he says no? Confused

Do adults just not get married then?

OP posts:
Pa1oma · 29/04/2019 15:26

No I don’t think all sexism does come from misogyny.

A man can treat a woman differently to a man without hating women. Of course he can. This happens all the time.

BertrandRussell · 29/04/2019 15:28

“A man can treat a woman differently to a man without hating women.”
A man can treat a woman differently to a man without being sexist, too.

Pa1oma · 29/04/2019 15:30

Yes I agree Bertrand.

BertrandRussell · 29/04/2019 15:34

However, having a separate private “man to man” conversation with a prospective fil about your intentions is definitely sexist. In this case to two women.

ACurlyWurly · 29/04/2019 15:54

I am gay, my DW wen to see my DM (my step DF was there but she was speaking to the woman who had raised me more) to tell them she was intending on asking me and asked for their blessing. They were touched, I more so as it shows she listened when I told them I feel traditions are important.

We are both women, no man was giving us away or giving permission, it was a lovely thing to do.....my DM tells people my DW asked for my hand because she is old fashioned and that's how she words it.

My DM was overjoyed to be spoken to, it made her feel special, it made me feel listened to and it made my DW happy to get blessing and acceptance to join a family which has previously struggled with the ideas of having lesbians in their midst!

The answer is simple, if you as a woman feel that you would not like your OH to speak to your parents before proposing, then establish a relationship where you can speak to each other and agree this in the beginning. It only becomes a problem if your OH disregards your request and asks anyway. If enough women prefer it to not happen then it will faze out. If you cant discuss this with your OH then you shouldn't be saying yes to the proposal anyway!

Putthatlampshadeonyourhead · 29/04/2019 15:55

No I don’t think all sexism does come from misogyny.

Not on an individual level. But on a historic level it does. Sexism is prevalent because men found they could control women by making sure women were owned and remained where men wanted them.

So while people make sexist decision and not be misogynistic. Sexist thinks has it roots in misogyny.

Pa1oma · 29/04/2019 15:56

Well it’s sexist in the sense that it didn’t include DM, yes. But I think sometimes men have a particular way of communicating and this was one if those times. Just as women do on other occasions.

TheSunIsShining19 · 29/04/2019 15:59

@BertrandRussell there we go, there is @ACurlyWurly..a woman asking for the mil's blessing first..

TheSunIsShining19 · 29/04/2019 16:01

@BertrandRussell and you still haven't answered my question about me already knowing that one day, my partner is going to propose?

Where is the sexism??

You can't answer it, because there is absolutely no sexism there at all.

TheBulb · 29/04/2019 16:10

You can't answer it, because there is absolutely no sexism there at all.

I can't be bothered to scroll back through the thread to see exactly what you said, but why are you waiting to be proposed to? If you have already agreed your futures are together, and that this shared future includes marriage, you're already engaged, without any anachronistic guff about proposals or asking your father, things which place women in the passive position while men act in things which centrally involve the women.

Smellslikemiddleagespirit · 29/04/2019 16:23

Can't be arsed to read the whole thread, but seriously, does this still happen? I thought it died out ca.1920 or something.

Why would anyone want to marry a man who asked their father for their "hand"? The very thought makes me feel queasy. I'd maybe understand if it were both parents who were asked, but this man to man agreement about marriage is a hideous, sexist anachronism.

BertrandRussell · 29/04/2019 16:27

“You can't answer it, because there is absolutely no sexism there at all.”

Sorry- I thought I had answered it. It is two men discussing the future of a woman without her involvement. It is sexist. Just because you welcome it, and the people concerned are doing it from the best and purest of motives and they both love you- it is still sexist- and comes from a deeply misogynist tradition.

pigsDOfly · 29/04/2019 16:29

I got married in 1977 when I was 28.

My future husband, now my exh, didn't ask my DF's permission before we got engage. It never occurred to him and tbh I think my DF would have been flabbergasted if he had.

I can't believe this still happens.

Obviously in certain cultures I understand things are different, but in general in most run of the mill British families, it's usual that the couple will have been in a sexual relationship before they marry anyway. Surely going to the woman's father and asking his permission to marry her is a bit redundant by that time.

Given that it's 2019 she's doubtless an adult who makes her own decisions in most things. And given that she doesn't belong to her father, a father who will not be passing on his ownership to her husband on their marriage, because it's the 21st century, why on earth would anyone do this? I think it's bizarre.

Thirtyrock39 · 29/04/2019 16:36

Classic MN- in real life everyone still does this and tbh I would think them a bit spineless and not arsed about future in laws if they didn't .
It's a token gesture - often done after the proposal and lets face it a lot of weddings and marriage traditions are pretty sexist and very old fashioned - wearing white, the vows, giving away, veils etc
I kind of asked my husband to marry me so not part of any possession based exchange but I was really impressed when my dad told me dh had asked him if he was ok with us getting married - there was no talk of hand in marriages.

BertrandRussell · 29/04/2019 16:38

“in real life everyone still does this and tbh I would think them a bit spineless and not arsed about future in laws if they didn't”

Do they really? Are you sure about that? I would be amazed if they did !

TheSunIsShining19 · 29/04/2019 16:48

I can't be bothered to scroll back through the thread to see exactly what you said, but why are you waiting to be proposed to? If you have already agreed your futures are together, and that this shared future includes marriage, you're already engaged, without any anachronistic guff about proposals or asking your father, things which place women in the passive position while men act in things which centrally involve the women.

I don't want to get engaged or married yet, for personal reasons. If you wish to know then it's because I am disabled, and have been for many years now. I take immense amount of medication including oral liquid morphine, diazepam, morphine patches..the list goes on. I spend my days in horrific pain constantly.

We are going through the process of getting me into a better place, where pain doesn't rule my life. And I can have at least one day, where I feel good about myself.

I don't want to be screaming in pain, crying, not being able to move being proposed to. So definitely can't get married yet either, as that's not what I envision I want to be like when we do get married.

And I am not at all in a passive position. Me being in that position, would be my partner knowing full well I don't want to at the moment, would be him not giving a crap and proposing anyway!

InceyWinceyette · 29/04/2019 16:51

"Well it’s sexist in the sense that it didn’t include DM, yes. But I think sometimes men have a particular way of communicating and this was one if those times. Just as women do on other occasions."

And also sexist in that you did not speak to your future MIL in the same way. It is one sided. No one, it seems, asks for a man's hand in marriage in a heterosexual relationship.

Sensible post by CurlyWurly - patriarchy has also historically worked against against same sex relationships, through religion and law and I do think it subverts the patriarchy when women take matters into their own hands and adjust traditions on their own terms.

IMO from a feminist perspective, This 'hand in marriage' business needs to either die out or it needs to divest itself of sexist baggage by as many women asking their future MILs as men asking FILs, or asking the 'other' parent. With the agreement of the fiance/e, of course, as discussed by Curly Wurly.

In the same way that a woman changing her surname to her husbands on marriage will lose its sexist currency when as many men change their names to their wives', or as many adopt both names hyphenated or a combined or new surname.

Until then, you cannot take the decision out of its context.

You can of course still make the decision to take a man's name - but it is within the context of an unequal assumption. And it does imply status - there have been many references on MN to men taking the piss out of men who change their names or whose wives do not. It is seen by many as not having got your DW under your thumb, basically.

pigsDOfly · 29/04/2019 16:53

Well, everyone doesn't do this in RL (see my post above).

My son in law didn't do it, and I'm pretty sure my son did not ask his future MIL (FIL is dead) for permission to marry the woman he's lived with for the last 6 years or so before he proposed to her; tbh I think she would have been furious with him if he had.

Also I could just imagine my DD's fury if her husband had asked her father for his permission; she would not have been pleased.

Putthatlampshadeonyourhead · 29/04/2019 16:57

Everyone doesnt do this is real life. What a ridiculous statement.

No one in my circle has done it. Maybe other people I know, but i am not close enough to know these details.

TheBulb · 29/04/2019 17:05

Sun, I'm really sorry you're suffering so much, and you have my best wishes for getting the pain under control and planning your wedding. I'd still regard you as absolutely already engaged, though, as you're obviously thoroughly committed to a future together that involves marriage as soon as you're well enough.

in real life everyone still does this

They don't, you know. As I said miles up the thread, I have a large and very international circle of friends whose marriages I've been around for, and the only one to have done this (or had this done to her, rather) was an Indian woman from a conservative background who was actually having an arranged marriage.

Pa1oma · 29/04/2019 17:08

I do wonder about MN sometimes because I would say everyone I know has done this. If not before the engagement, definitely afterwards.

What else do you do, send a text?

Just as DH felt the need to speak to my DF before he proposed, I did feel the need to speak to MIL after we became engaged, in a way I didn’t feel the need to speak to FIL. He just congratulated me. Obviously I couldn’t have spoken to MIL beforehand as I wasn’t planning to propose.

I distinctly remember feeling quite nervous having the conversation with MIL. To be fair, she is by any stretch of the imagination, a borderline personality. But it was more than that - I guess you feel like you’re supplanting her in some way? Or you don’t want her to feel pushed out or tread on her toes? Something like that..,So in this respect, I can totally understand why men feel the need to speak to the DF in particular. I guess it’s a different dynamic.

MIL actually gave me some quite good advice and wishes. She then gave me two boxes of jewellery. She also insisted on a programme of teaching me how to cook about 6 dishes from her home country Hmm, but at the time I just went with it because it was obviously important to her. Sometimes you just have to go with the flow in the interest of future harmony.

BertrandRussell · 29/04/2019 17:12

“What else do you do, send a text?”

Go together to tell parents.

Putthatlampshadeonyourhead · 29/04/2019 17:29

What else do you do, send a text?

No. Go tell them

TheSunIsShining19 · 29/04/2019 17:42

@TheBulb thank you for your kind words 😊

People do presume on a daily basis we are married..but nope I still want a proposal..I want a big diamond engagement ring 😂

The only part I see as a bit off, is a woman has an engagement ring but a man doesn't.
We have discussed this though, and I have said that when we do get engaged, I will buy him a ring as well. I don't think it's right for a woman to walk around and people know she is 'taken' so to speak, but the man doesn't. So people will know, he is also taken!

But I do not see anything in our future plans, as sexism.
Like I said if it was my mother, father or grandmother who raised me, my partner would ask them instead for their blessing.

What sex they are is completely irrelevant.

Gth1234 · 29/04/2019 17:48

I bought my wife an engagement ring. Well we picked it together. She bought me a lovely watch which still looks the business.