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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder what happens when your boyfriend asks your father for your hand...

753 replies

PumpkinLatteMyArse · 27/04/2019 19:13

And then he says no? Confused

Do adults just not get married then?

OP posts:
Original poster
PumpkinLatteMyArse · 28/04/2019 23:36

For those of you who think he's a misogynist he's been doing night feeds and looking after a toddler so his wife can recover from her c-section.

He may or may not be a misogynist but I hope you appreciate that looking after a toddler when your wife has had major surgery isn't special. At all. It is the literal bare minimum.

OP posts:
SenecaFalls · 28/04/2019 23:42

DH didn't propose. We talked about marriage as our relationship evolved and came to a mutual decision.

LaCastafiore · 29/04/2019 00:01

He may or may not be a misogynist but I hope you appreciate that looking after a toddler when your wife has had major surgery isn't special. At all. It is the literal bare minimum.

for men like my DH - who did propose, ask my dad and all the trimmings, that's certainly true.

for the men so many posters are complaining about, it doesn't sound so natural.

The point being that a man can perfectly share everything 50/50 - as long as it's biologically possible - and be old fashioned.

SenecaFalls · 29/04/2019 00:03

It's bad enough for the man to "ask for her hand" after they have agreed to marry, even if pro forma, but to do it before he proposes or otherwise gets her agreement to marry, takes the sexism inherent in the process to new depths.

Namenic · 29/04/2019 00:20

@putthatlampshade - i’m A bit puzzled with the respect issue. If the man at his fiancee’s request asked the FIL for his blessing because it was expected by the fiancee’s family (even if they are aware it likely won’t make a difference to eventual outcome) - how is that not a sign of respect for all parties involved (except maybe the man himself)? Some outsider is going to say there is no respect shown???

I can understand the family expectation can be misogynistic but they are VERY UNLIKELY to change their opinion/behaviour because their daughter and fiancé declare that they are not doing this oppressive tradition because of feminism. There may also be other factors at play eg ageism (do older people’s views count), cultural issues (do the minority culture feel ignored?) - plenty of scope for misunderstanding. life is more complicated than just feminism.

SenecaFalls · 29/04/2019 00:26

Again, blessing is not the same thing as permission. And the mother's blessing should be asked for as well.

Putthatlampshadeonyourhead · 29/04/2019 06:24

Oh my gosh!! All the aggressive undertones in your posts have suddenly just made me change my mindLet's all just agree with her. She is right, all other women..you can't have an opinion, well you can but you are wrong!

Again, women with opinions are aggressive. Hmm how original.

I have clearly said do what want. But I wont agree it's not sexist. Or respectful. Or doesnt impact others.

Again I said I dont expect anyone to change their mind and agree with me. But, oddly, people are getting very arsey because I wont agree with them.

Namenic I have explained my feelings on that. If you ask for someones blessing or permission (note this keeps being watered down from permission, to blessing to a 'heads up') but the person you are asking can only hive one answer. That's not respectful. It's not respectful to pretend you genuinely want this persons opinion or permission, when they arent actually allowed the make the decision. Or they do actually give you the answer you dont want and your respond with 'ah well, I am doing it anyway'

If your dh asked for your blessing to do something and you said 'no, you dint have my blessing' and he went 'well to be honest I was only asking a formality, I dont really need your blessing. I am doing anyway' you wouldn't wonder why in earth he asked in the first place? Would that make you feel respected?

And it's pointless. Its play acting.

b0bb1n · 29/04/2019 06:33

My DH wanted to write my dad a letter as they had never met when we got engaged (parents live abroad) and it would have been the sweetest thing in the world. I think he was planning on writing more about his love for me and plans for us rather than asking permission to marry, as a respect thing as they had never met. He didn't do it in the end but I (and he) wish he did.

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 29/04/2019 06:52

I have explained many times now why consulting / addressing / speaking with / giving a “heads up” to the father is simply seen by some as good manners and a mark of respect. It’s just a formality really. If you can’t see that, then I’m not sure how else I can explain it.

But you haven't explained anything. You have asserted that it is a mark of respect but haven't explained who is showing respect to whom and why it is needed in this context.

CheekyWeeGobshite · 29/04/2019 07:40

The point being that a man can perfectly share everything 50/50 - as long as it's biologically possible - and be old fashioned.

Leaving aside all the permission/ownership/respect stuff, this is actually my main practical concern with men who ask for your hand in marriage. Because my observation with friends and common sense would suggest that men who are traditional about some things tend to be traditional about others - eg they expect their wife to do the bulk of the housework and child-rearing while the man is the 'provider'. So whilst the whole asking-thing might be a "sweet, harmless tradition", it suggests to me that the men (and women) involved might quite fancy a traditional marriage in other ways.

BertrandRussell · 29/04/2019 07:58

“I have explained many times now why consulting / addressing / speaking with / giving a “heads up” to the father is simply seen by some as good manners and a mark of respect.“
I know that is how some people think. It comes as no surprise to me that some people like to perpetuate outdated sexist behaviour!

Part of the problem is that people very rarely do things like this in isolation. If it is part of their mindset, then it will undoubtedly show itself in other areas of their lives too.

Windowsareforcheaters · 29/04/2019 07:59

Big round of applause for the man who can parent his own child.

I'm soooooo impressed.

He may not be sexist but his mother certainly is.

Pa1oma · 29/04/2019 08:13

OnlyLibingBoy - I think I have explained, but I think it’s the case that some people simply refuse to understand, rather than are unable to.

It’s very simple really. As I said, I can’t speak for the entire nation, but I think for most people it’s a formality these days. Nobody is expecting a “no” and if they were, they probably wouldn’t be asking!

In our case, my parents had only met DH twice as they live abroad and we’d only been dating about 6 months. When they were visiting London, DH went for a walk with my DF under the guise of showing him some certain pub with whatever beer. He told him he was going to propose etc. I don’t really know what they said exactly. About two weeks later, we were on holiday and then that was when DH proposed. When I said I should ring my parents, he told me he’d already spoken with my dad and reassured him about everything. So that was it. Anyway, my parents were delighted and less worried than they might have been otherwise.

My dad would not have said “no” unless the guy was a psycho. If he was worried, he would have come to me. But I think he appreciated the gesture and it made him trust and “bond” with DH more. My mum was also happy and felt more part of the wedding.

We have relatives on DH’s side who are younger than us and who have basically have had arranged marriages in the modern sense. Again nobody is forced into anything, but parents in a certain community talk - “My nephew is a barrister aged 35,” or “My cousin is an optician aged 32,” etc etc. They meet at family events and if they hit it off, they start the ball rolling. This happens a lot, but people would not necessarily realise.

So people are coming from different perspectives. That’s all really. I don’t think it’s that hard to understand.

InceyWinceyette · 29/04/2019 08:15

I see this as a status thing between men, too. The younger man showing his jugular to the alpha male if the family. “I come in peace, I respect your place as head of the family”.

So many people saying “my DFather expected it”. Why ? What did he get out of it? His ego massaged, his place affirmed?

It is a real thing, aggro between men in families. So many homeless teen boys have been ousted by a new step-dad/ mother’s partner.

I have no respect for this dynamic between men. It seems Neanderthal rather than ‘traditional’

I wonder whether there would be fewer MNers with MIL issues had they asked their MILs for their permission / blessing to marry their sons?

Women who feel that asking is sweet / family values / respectful: did it not occur to you to ask your partner’s parents? Why is that not a tradition if it is such a positive thing that men get welcomed into the family, or however you want to put it?

BertrandRussell · 29/04/2019 08:16

“So people are coming from different perspectives. That’s all really. I don’t think it’s that hard to understand.”
Of course it’s not hard to understand! I understand completely. I just think it’s outdated, sexist and potentially an indicator of outdated sexist thinking in other areas. I don’t think that’s hard to understand either

Pa1oma · 29/04/2019 08:46

Bertrand - I completely understand why you might think it’s sexist. But can I assure you, that we’re not some backward, misogynist individuals. Really we’re not.

Here’s an alternative perspective - People in my DH’s culture wouid see it as shocking and misogynistic that so many women feel they have to return to work 6 months after a baby. This would not be seen as “equality”, it would be seen as the DH not living up to his responsibility to support his family. If you’re not in a position to properly support your family, then you have no business getting married in the first place. This is the attitude and it’s anothef reason why the DH might want to reassure the PILs-to-be - “Don’t worry - I’m solvent...” that kind of thing. It may seem backward to many on here, but in a way, there is far more respect for the position of new mums and emphasis on men to be more responsible in a marriage. Women are not expected to “do it all” in the early years ie juggle work with childcare and be run ragged in the process. That’s NOT to say women aren’t encouraged to pursue their careers because many do. But you certainly don’t have to feel pressure in the way some women do on here and your DH would not expect you to. It’s hard to explain, but it’s just different. And you would never have a “separate finances” DH either. Everything is shared from day one.

Putthatlampshadeonyourhead · 29/04/2019 10:12

People in my DH’s culture wouid see it as shocking and misogynistic that so many women feel they have to return to work 6 months after a baby. This would not be seen as “equality”, it would be seen as the DH not living up to his responsibility to support his family

Some cultures may think that, but how is it misogynistic though? It's not.

Its misogynistic to think that if a woman works it's because a man isnt doing his job properly and providing. That there must be something the man is doing wrong if the woman wants her own career.

Misogyny can be damaging to men too. Because it puts both men and women in to roles that have to fulfill. That's not good for anyone. Saying to a man 'oh if your wife wants to keep her carry we will judge you', is awful for him as well as her. What she he do, forbid her from working? Let his in laws believe he cant provide?

Its misogynistic to assume if a woman works it down to the man. Not the womans decision or want or need.

Just because your husbands culture doesnt like equality, doesnt mean that it's not sexist. Your husband took your dad for a walk, because your husbands and comes from a culture where this is expected.

And it's not respectful to women.

That's fine, you do it. But it's still sexist.

BertrandRussell · 29/04/2019 10:29

“ - People in my DH’s culture wouid see it as shocking and misogynistic that so many women feel they have to return to work 6 months after a baby”
How is that misogynist? And, frankly, it is a microstep from that to “women should stay at home and look after babies”.

HoppingPavlova · 29/04/2019 10:52

If anyone asks for DD’s hand, DH would instantly say no. Then he would inform DD that her boyfriend was a dickGrin.

She is not a possession so he would also be horrified at the thought of walking her down the aisle and giving her away. And don’t get me started on any potential name change! He would be devastated and no, she does not have his surname, nor mine as we made a new one for our kids using the letters from both of our names.

PanGalaticGargleBlaster · 29/04/2019 11:13

Why are you asking?

It’s not my dad’s decision, it’s mine

You are not asking 'permission' you are seeking their blessing. It's just a bit of tradition. I imagine that 99% of the time the would be groom knows what the answer would be so it's not a big deal, just showing a bit of respect to tradition. As others have mentioned if the father said no I imagine most couples would just get on with it anyway!

BertrandRussell · 29/04/2019 11:43

“You are not asking 'permission' you are seeking their blessing.”
Well, actually, if you are being traditional you are asking permission......

Pa1oma · 29/04/2019 11:53

I don’t think one person on here has said that their DF actually “asked” for the daughter’s hand in the sense that if the answer had been “no” then that would have been the end of it.

Where has anyone said this?

So why all the pedantry and insistence on pushing this notion to extremes that simply don’t apply?

PanGalaticGargleBlaster · 29/04/2019 12:11

Well, actually, if you are being traditional you are asking permission......

Not really, as I said, if in the unlikely event the would be FIL says no the couple are not bound by the decision, they can crack on regardless. Its just a token gesture.

Putthatlampshadeonyourhead · 29/04/2019 12:14

Then its a pointless question, for the sake of tradition. Which perpetuates sexism.

BertrandRussell · 29/04/2019 12:15

“Not really, as I said, if in the unlikely event the would be FIL says no the couple are not bound by the decision, they can crack on regardless. Its just a token gesture”

So you’re not following tradition at all.