To wonder what happens when your boyfriend asks your father for your hand...

[PumpkinLatteMyArse]

And then he says no?

Do adults just not get married then?

Namenic if it was important to you that your partner felt confident to visit/spend time with your family, was there no way you could have facilitated that without him perpetuating patriarchal stereotypes? Like maybe organise a series of get togethers?

The idea of it being a blessing came in about half way through the thread when it became apparent that 'asking' and 'permission' were indefensible.

If it is a blessing by loving parents the surely it is equally applicable to both parents on both sides?

No? Just the father and just the potential son in law doing the asking for the blessing. When you are playing with words to such an extent because the idea is antediluvian then you may as well just give up. The time has gone, move on.

I did - but lots of other issues were on the table as well. Cross cultural marriage - think my big fat Greek wedding (but i’m not Greek). Parents (1st gen immigrants) thought we were rushing it, but for me and DH it was the right time. I had a lot of work stress. Feminism was waaay down the list.

Btw - I don’t think making a ‘stand’ on feminism would have changed my parents views. It would just have made it harder for them to get on with DH.

I realise this is a long thread and I haven't read all of it, but I've heard of this idea making a comeback and find it absolutely disgusting.

Windows and BertrandRussell are absolutely right, some women allowing themselves to be owned by men reflects on us all. Asking for permission from the father is giving men control of us and of our bodies. What next, are you going to ask your father if you can sleep with someone? Then put up with it when he tells you to? It's the start of the slippery slope back to enslavement for us all.

It is not just 'getting a paternal blessing'. You can ask for that without asking for permission, they are different things. Why else are you asking your father's blessing, rather than your mother's? She's the one who brought you into the world. And no, as a pp asked, I was not 'walked down the aisle' by my father, nor given away. My body is mine and my life is mine. If my partner had dared to think he should ask my father for permission, I'd have left immediately.

My OH didn’t ask my dad for permission, but Ben did tell him what he was planning and my mum.

I think the conversation was something along the lines of ‘I’ve bought tunncocks and engagement ring, and I’m going to propose to her on our anniversary’ and they said something along the lines of ‘fantastic news, she’ll be thrilled and we’re so happy for you both’

He, not Ben. My husband is not called Ben.

I have the same rights, if not more, and privileges than any male around me, I can achieve at least as much as DH. I am good, thanks.

Good grief. I wish I could laugh but this just makes me want to weep.

I'm very glad you're all right and have lots of rights and privileges. Do you think this applies to all women globally, or do you think there might still be millions of women across the globe who aren't quite so lucky as you?

Or do you actually not give a shit because you're all right, so sexism must be dead?

Unbelievable. Just unbelievable.

I will also add, that if my dd meets someone and decides she wants to live with them and that person comes and asks my husband for permission there will absolutely be fireworks. My children need ask no man for permission, least of all a man who thinks he can ignore women in the form of both her and myself.

I have been accused of screaming at men who open doors for me. I never mentioned doors and havent screamed at anyone since my teens
Nope, I didn't say you did, that's your assumption, forced interpretations, over sensitivity, strident-ness, etc.
One of the ways you can do it is by setting an example
And ONLY those examples defined and approved by Putthatlampshadeonyourhead are allowable

Pa1oma but no one can explain how it's a sign of respect. That's the issue with people just keep saying its about respect.

A father might feel disrespected if his suture son in law didnt ask for their blessing or permission. That father is also misogynistic. Maybe not outwardly and overtly sexist in day to life. But definitely has mysognisic values.

And if the father doesnt actually believe they can stop it. Or the couple will marry anyway, its disrespectful. Having a pointless converstation with someone so they believe their opinion is important and pivotal, when in fact it means nothing, isnt respecting someone.

That's the point. If there isnt a way the father can say no or give his honest opinion, it's not showing respect.

If you ask for permission or a blessing and its denied and you do it anyway. The permission or blessing wasnt actually important at all.

So yes, its men and women play acting, this ritual that actually means nothing, but is very sexist. So pointless, but perpetuating the belief that women are still, somewhat, owned.

@THEsonofaBITCH again and again posters says you can do what you like and behave how you like.

You do not have to only follow "those examples defined and approved" by other posters.

You can do what you want. I and many other feminists would defend your right to make decisions and behave in a way we don't like and don't agree with.

BUT you need to accept that your decisions and choices are not made in a vacuum and if you make decisions that benefit and are approved by the patriarchy they will negatively impact on other women.

Your choice - like you keep on saying. As an adult you need to accept the consequences of your actions or do you regard yourself as a child in this respect as well?

Exactly. The only way in which the "respect" argument works is if the proposal only goes ahead if the father approves. All those people who have been saying - of course, we'd have got engaged anyway - where's the respect in that? It's bullshit.

THEson you posted this
Because you are deliberately trying to find/take offense just as some who scream at a man for holding open a door - its not sexist but respectful.

You didnt liken me to women who scream at men for holding a door?

And I would bet a months wage, that you have never seen a woman scream at a man for simply holding a door open.

You see that's your issue. You have an opinion. I have a different one. But you cant accept that without going down the very typical and mysognisic route.

You complain I am only willing to accept my own point if view and that if those who agree with me. How is that different to you. Why should I be the one to change my mind? I dont agree with it. You havent giving any compelling reason to change my mind.

Of course the examples I set my daughter are the ones I think are right. Would you set examples to your kids that you thought were wrong?

I havent said anyone shouldnt do this. I have said, crack on and do it. But dont pretend it's about being respectful. Because it's the opposite.

If you said 'well not sure why, but she wanted me to, he dads a bit sexist so I went along with it' I would respect that more.

As it is your are flapping about trying to come up with a good solid reason.

I wont accept your point if view. Just as it's fine for you not to accept mine. But you are taking exception with the fact I wont change my mind after you mansplained it.

@Putthatlampshadeonyourhead
Oh my gosh!! All the aggressive undertones in your posts have suddenly just made me change my mind Let's all just agree with her. She is right, all other women..you can't have an opinion, well you can but you are wrong!

Power to the women and all that

There you go..happy now?

Right after being up since 6am spending another day cleaning the whole house, slaving over a hot stove, looking after the children, and doing all the washing and ironing..while my partner put some shelves up, mowed the lawn, washed the cars, and is now waiting for me to bring him his beer while he watches the football, then run him his bath, I'm off to bed to get a few hours before the baby wakes up for his night feeds!

Have a good evening

Anyone who invokes the “I know a feminist who shouted at a man who held the door for her” meme has instantly lost whatever argument they were involved in. Especially if they claim it happened to their husband. It’s like Godwin’s Law but for feminism. Dworkin’s Law?

Well I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m not flapping about trying to find a reason for anything.

I have explained many times now why consulting / addressing / speaking with / giving a “heads up” to the father is simply seen by some as good manners and a mark of respect. It’s just a formality really. If you can’t see that, then I’m not sure how else I can explain it.

As for this related argument of, “well the DF can’t say no, therefore it’s pointless” - this is simply irrelevant. As I said, it’s still an attempt to respect the family and do the right thing, regardless of the response.

Anyway, nobody is forcing anyone to do this if they’re dead set against it, so why all the drama?

I’m not threatened by the fact that there are still some remnants of male traditional values in society. I think I can mostly distinguish the difference between misogyny and good intention in men.

By the way, I spent many, many years in the mindset of some posters on here. I travelled solo through Asia raging against the patriarchy for years. Please don’t think for one second I don’t “see” it - in all its manifestations everywhere. But as I get older, I’ve think I just have a more realistic understanding of human nature and what motivates us. I just don’t think men and women want to be completely denied certain behaviours and roles in life. Not completely because if “equal” means “the same”, then yes, some inconsistencies may disappear, but it would be a very logical, stale existence in its place. I think this is the problem for the type of feminism often expressed on here. If you follow it to its logical conclusion, this doesn’t actually appeal to a lot of women.

I have explained many times now why consulting / addressing / speaking with / giving a “heads up” to the father is simply seen by some as good manners and a mark of respect.

By whom exactly? Is it by Asians, since you've travelled there?

It is a mark of absolute disrespect to women's autonomy over their own bodies. It is absolutely bad manners to ignore the mother-in-law but 'respect' the father-in-law. It is even worse to ignore your potential partner's rights. Stop trying to dress it up. It is men assuming rights to control women.

How depressing that you equate equality with ‘staleness’, Pa1oma. You must have really learned to eroticise your own subjugation.

At the risk of upsetting the sisterhood,. why on earth is this subject such a big deal. There are far worse things in this world for women (and men) then being part of a (sort-of) traditional-ish family with traditional-ish views. A loving family, may I add.

Shame I can't edit a post. You seem to be reacting as if marriage is a battleground, rather then a harmonious loving partnership.

My husband asked my dad (on my request). My dad said "what if day no?" DH said "we'd still get married anyway" and my dad smiled and said "good!" Then gave his permission. It's a bit of an intergenerational family joke my poor husband didn't know about.

It’s not about eroticising anything. I just think it would be stale and quite limiting if women felt they had to emulate men and vice versa. It’s just replacing one set of expectations with another.

I’m talking about British people Dark. Not all of them clearly. I have a lot of friends from Indian / Pakistani and other Middle Eastern cultures, but that’s another matter. DH has a Middle Eastern background too, although he’s aetheist and doesn’t really adhere to any one particular culture. But there are different perspectives and a lot of women across the world wouldn’t be necessarily striving for the MN concept of equality. Maybe some aspects if it, but not all.

I have explained many times now why consulting / addressing / speaking with / giving a “heads up” to the father is simply seen by some as good manners and a mark of respect

You've moved the goal posts a bit here. "Heads up" is pretty far removed from asking permission. We did in fact inform my father, as well as my mother, that we had decided to marry.

Seneca - Well it’s whatever you want to call the DH speaking to the DF or DF and DM before he proposes. People may call this whatever they want; the DH can phrase it how he wants. Nothing is set in stone.

My son asked his fil for permission, and told us he was going to propose. For those of you who think he's a misogynist he's been doing night feeds and looking after a toddler so his wife can recover from her c-section.