To wonder what happens when your boyfriend asks your father for your hand...

[PumpkinLatteMyArse]

And then he says no?

Do adults just not get married then?

I do think some people take such matters too literally tbh. Interpretations of customs change over the years and people will make of them what they will. For instance, how many people go to Church anymore at Xmas or do anything particularly religious? The whole thing is based on Jesus (a male child of course) being born to a virgin mother (say no more). Yet is anyone up in arms about the patriarchal tradition that this has engendered. No. These days most people just interpret Xmas as a time to spend with family and exchange gifts. In other words, the context of the tradition has changed as society has changed, yet people still enjoy the tradition and want to observe it in some way.

It’s the same with Easter. Few people observe Lent and these days it’s mainly about Easter eggs for the kids. Do would you shout at someone who observes Easter - “Don’t you realise the significance of this? Millions have died in the name of Christianity! You “under-thinker” you! People have fought for thousands of years for freedom from religious oppression, yet there you are, doing an Easter egg hunt!!”.

I come from a patriarchal culture and pick and choose bits I keep. No hard and fast rules. I chose it because I see it as a small gesture to keep family happy and i knew we would not be bound by the answer. Plus, I could assess DH’s commitment.*

See I can understand this. You are aware its sexist. But did for an easy life. At least that's honest. Instead of pretending it's down to respect/family values/ romantic etc.

I still disagree with it. Because it does impact other women

Also how does that show commitment. Do you think marriages are less likely to fail, if a parent is asked permission?

Pa1oma, I used to be a wedding coordinator. Quite rural, so I would hear from new brides about their friends who weddings I had done. The type of proposal had nothing to do with the marriage working.

In fact, I would say the opposite. The people I know who have had big planned proposals, huge showy weddings tend not to last 3 years.

The low key ones, in general, are going the distance.

Why would you never propose to your partner?

Pa1oma actually as a catholic I find the #lentchallenge that's on Instagram quite offensive.

People posting about how they are giving something up for lent, how hard it will be etc.....yet have no clue what lent actually is. I dont like it.

If you want to debate it, we can. But right now this is what we are debating.

How is it my father's name, but not my name? He didn't win it in a raffle, he got it at birth from a parent. Just like I did.

Do people realise how sexist it is to say a name a woman was born with is less her name than her brother?

My dc then get their mother's name.

Pa1oma, your examples are in no way equivalent. Christmas and Easter were pre-existing midwinter and spring festivals co-opted by Christianity, which have largely reverted to their non-Christian ‘celebration of the passing of the seasons’ status, understandably in an increasingly secular and multi-cultural country — after all, eggs and exchanging presents and decorating trees are in no way related to Jesus.

And a non-Christian giving someone an Easter egg in no way devalues the beliefs of a devout Christian who has fasted through Lent and views Easter as the culmination of the church year.

No, i dont have a problem with people disagreeing. I dont like when they do it via insults but im in the minority on this thread so im sure you will explain to me how being called sexist is "just a disagreement" and not an insult.

From what I can see you were quite insulting yourself.

My DH spoke to my dad months before we got engaged, he wasn’t asking permission, was just saying he planned to propose at X time. Didn’t bother me in the slightest, the opinion that you see on mumsnet about this is one I’ve only seen on mumsnet. I haven’t RTFT yet but if changing surnames are mentioned that’s another thing I’ve only ever seen on here.

s your choice though, although you had that name forced on you, you can easily change your surname to your mothers name or double barrel it if you felt so strongly about taking another mans name?

Because it literally is my name. It has been my name for 30+ years. My whole life My mother's name isnt my name.

If a person gives birth to twin boy and girl.

Explain why after both children received a parent's name. Only one gets to say it really belongs to them and not their father?

The point I’m trying to make is about interpretation. You don’t have to take a tradition literally, or observe every aspect of it, in order to enjoy it.

My DH wasn’t asking for “permission” as such. I think people get stuck on that word, even though I doubt many men are asking for “permission” these days, if indeed they ever were (in the UK at least). It’s more about having the respect to assure the DH that you have the right intentions, etc. DH told DF he wouid look after me and make sure I was happy. Some may find that offensive. I didn’t.

Also, to answer lampshade’s question, no I would not propose to a man. Call me old-fashioned, but I’m not about to get pregnant, give birth and become forever connected to a man who can’t even be bothered or find it within himself to step up and ask a question in a meaningful way. There are some things I think men need to do and this is one of those things - the reason being, its generally women who will be left holding the baby if a man is flaky or non-committal. Obviously I realise there are no guarantees of anything and a proposal does not mean a marriage is fsilsafe by any means, but I would at least like to try and start as I mean to go on. Also I think some think some moments are to be celebrated because there’s enough crap in general life, why not mark the best parts ? So that’s just me.

Your choice, you make it, but don't kid yourself that it is without consequences for other women.

@Windowsareforcheaters how does my choice, on how I live my life, has consequences for other women?

Please elaborate

I'm still waiting for this statement to be answered!
I really don't understand, how my life has consequences for other women? Just because I would like my partner to ask for my grandfather's blessing??

My friends plan is to just go to Las Vegas and have a trashy, wild wedding (her words) no blessing, no one is going to know until they have done it.
Her plans haven't effected me and I haven't to her either?

“how does my choice, on how I live my life, has consequences for other women?“
Because, like it or not, doing sexist stuff legitimises and perpetuates sexism.

Agree 100% with you @Pa1oma..I would never ask my partner to marry me..but I couldn't care less if other women want to ask their man!

how does my choice, on how I live my life, has consequences for other women?“
Because, like it or not, doing sexist stuff legitimises and perpetuates sexism.

And how in any of my posts made, have my plans legitimise and perpetuates sexism.
Please find for me where any of my words have made you form this opinion..

@windows - and offending relatives also brings consequences... families are complex and why risk a rift? I’m glad I can use my autonomy to weigh things up and make a considered choice - even if it makes me a bad feminist!

Personally don’t see it as that different from surname choice (either for women or for their children)... but each to their own.

I agree people are purposefully mixing things up to try and make an ignorant point. Asking for the parents' blessing isn't the same as asking for permission as Putthatlampshadeonyourhead and others have tried to state.

Pa1oma and those are your choices.

But dont pretend they dont impact other people or those choices arent sexist.

I disagree with all you wrote. But at the end of the day it's your choice.

Except patriarchal societies and relationships, generally dont go well for women as a whole.

I also dont get the connection about proposing and getting married. You had kids because you wanted kids. Not just your dh.

I agree people are purposefully mixing things up to try and make an ignorant point. Asking for the parents' blessing isn't the same as asking for permission asPutthatlampshadeonyourheadand others have tried to state.

Its not really. What's the blessing for? To say you agree with the marriage.

And again, you havent answered

Why its respectful when you and your future wife had no intention of listening if they said 'no blessing'. Or why its respectful at all.

Or

Why your future wife couldnt have had that converstation herself.

My DH did this. We knew that my Dad would say yes, but even if he hadn't we would have got married anyway.

It’s respectful by virtue of the fact you respect then enough to make a point of speaking to the DF to reassure him about his own daughter. Really, it’s not that hard to understand, is it?

If this kind of thing doesn’t appeal, that’s absolutely fine. Of course it is. But don’t be overly pedantic or pretend you don’t understand. Just say it’s not for you.

It’s respectful by virtue of the fact you respect then enough to make a point of speaking to the DF to reassure him about his own daughter. Really, it’s not that hard to understand, is it

Why does a father need to be reassured about his own daughter?

What does it actually reassure them about or prove?

And it's not respectful if you go in intending to ignore them anyway unless they give you the correct answer.

Going to a father or grandfather to announce an engagement and ask for a blessing is one thing. A man asking a father or grandfather for approval before asking the woman concerned is quite another thing.

Putthatlampshadeonyourhead
Because you are deliberately trying to find/take offense just as some who scream at a man for holding open a door - its not sexist but respectful. Discussing with her parents that this person they have loved and cared for all of her life and I would like to begin a life together formally in the eyes of all society and law. We had a chance, and used it, to discuss the situation and whether they would be happy for it to occur. We did indeed discuss the idea in depth and they said they would be happy for me to ask but in the end, it was her decision and hers alone. So why is asking for their blessing and discussing things offensive - except for those who go out of their way to find offense. Cheers, I am happy with my choices.

Reassured about what, exactly?

and offending relatives also brings consequences

Perhaps I am lucky. I am my fathers daughter strong, independent and willing to make my views clear. I have a voice and assume it will be taken into account. That's how I was brought up - by my dad.

If your father or family treat you like a child or a chattel it must be a lot harder to make your views heard.