To wonder what happens when your boyfriend asks your father for your hand...

[PumpkinLatteMyArse]

And then he says no?

Do adults just not get married then?

But please accept that not all women do feel “infantilised”

You don't 'feel' it but you are.

Someone is asking your parents permission for you. You are being treated like a child. You can enjoy it, want it and agree with it but you are still being treated like a child.

The modern mantra
But that's my opinion, no more right or wrong than yours

I'm sorry but some opinions are more valid than others. If was racists would my opinion by valid, would you simply shrug and accept it? I'd hope not.

”But anyone with their father’s name shouldn’t really deny the reality of where it came from.” True. No one is doing that though.

”Nor should they then berate women for taking their husbands’ name on marriage, if that’s what they choose to do.”

It is perfectly reasonable of those who suffer as the result of the patriarchal society to challenge those who perpetuate it.

But these 'traditions' do affect women massively in this day and age. Read about the lost girls of Sudan to see just how much the patriarchy affects women even in our lifetimes. Not nearly so much press or humanitarian effort was put towards their plight as to the lost boys. Our version of patriarchy may be watered down compared to that in areas of Africa or countries like Saudi but I personally wouldn't buy into something so detrimental to women. Even if it is dressed up in a thin veneer of respect or romance.

As to the daft 'ballsack' comment, human sperm is the very smallest cell in the human body. The Ova the very largest. So big it can be seen with the human eye. Does that mean our mothers own a bigger share than our fathers do?

Are people actually suggesting that ‘I’m fully aware of the patriarchal origins of the practice of a man asking a woman’s father for her hand in marriage, but, bafflingly, I still think that a tradition which commemorates women’s chattel status is “nice” and “romantic”’ is an opinion that deserves more than a pitying shake of the head at best?

My then boyfriend asked my dad, it's a lovely tradition and it was more asking for his blessing, it's not about being someone's property anymore.

It's absolutely fine if you don't want to follow this, but I pity the ones who cannot see past their own nose and cannot accept that they don't rule how others live their life.
It's a choice. I personally like it. No one has any right to tell me I shouldn't follow it.

If these traditions were not encouraged by women as well as men, they simply wouldn’t exist anymore. It’s far more complex than women being dim, or not understanding. Maybe they just have a different level of understanding when it comes to such matters?

or maybe they make different choices and don' feel the need to insult others who have different views, and more importantly don't have to do something because YOU think it's right or wrong and make up their own mind.

they don't rule how others live their life

So it's a good job no one has suggested changing the law or attempting to 'rule' anything.

It was been pointed on a discussion thread that this tradition has significantly oppressive origins and continuing it has implications for other women.

or maybe they make different choices

Choices you are fee to make because women before you stood up to traditions and fought. Choices you can make because other women have fought for your right to do so.

These choices weren't delivered in a pretty package with a bow on top by some man.

Arsed, awkward women stood up to tradition and were dismissed, called killjoys and laughed at. Sound familiar?

Indeed, Windows.

I’d be really interested to hear an honest argument setting forth precisely why a woman thinks a pernicious remnant of a time when women had few rights and choices is ‘nice’ or ‘romantic’.

Funny that no one ever seems to get further than ‘It’s just nice, isn’t it, and women who don’t think so are Killjoy Shrill Militant Feminists!’ Whereas the posters who think the contrary are perfectly capable of putting a reasoned argument together.

@putthatlampshade - i had already talked to my parents about me and DH getting married. My family expected DH to ask my DF (even if they knew we would eventually get married anyway), they lived 3 hours drive away, my husband is shy. In this case I wanted DH to ask my DF because in order to ask he would need to get to know my family and culture better (which was important to me). A ‘no’ answer would probably mean that he would have tried harder and longer (though eventually we would have got married anyway) - so perhaps it would have made a difference in terms of timing.

I come from a patriarchal culture and pick and choose bits I keep. No hard and fast rules. I chose it because I see it as a small gesture to keep family happy and i knew we would not be bound by the answer. Plus, I could assess DH’s commitment.

Windows - I don’t think anyone would disagree with you. But we no longer live in the past. As times change, people adapt and so the context for their decisions changes too. This is true for both men and women. There is a difference between being forced into something and making the choice to do it.

For instance, religion is no longer forced on people anymore (not in this country at least). You could argue it has repressive, patriarchal roots and you certainly wouldn’t be wrong, obviously. There is all the logic and enlightenment now for us to dismiss it completely. Yet, humans don’t only operate on logic. You can’t tell people how they feel, or how they want to feel. This is why people still follow religion. It’s also why some women don’t fight all patriarchal traditions such as being proposed to; wearing a white dress, etc etc. It’s not logical maybe and they’re certainly not forced into it. But yet, they must want to uphold such traditions in some level - otherwise they’d be long gone.

What is wrong of some women want their partner to ask their fathers permission first?
If you don't agree with it, that fine. It doesn't effect you in any way?!

Let them be them, and you be you.

It's all very simple!

I can't wait to take my partners surname, as my surname now, holds a lot of bad memories for me.

My DH asked my dad the day he spontaneously decided to do it, he knew my dad liked him and wanted us to be happy so I think he just felt appropriate to check he was ok with it. I had no issue with this.

We all hated my sisters now ex (thank god). My dad would have definitely said he didn’t approve, he wouldn’t have stopped them & knew if they ever wanted to marry he couldn’t stop them but he wouldn’t have given them any financial help at all towards the wedding. Thank god she saw sense and ended it eventually!

Custom/tradition just as Father 'giving' the bride away surely.

Amazing, TheSun, yet another in the long line of female Mn posters who intensely dislike their birth surname, and are thus dying to take their husbands’. Even stranger is the apparent almost total lack of men with equivalent negative association with their birth surnames.

@Pa1oma But yet, they must want to uphold such traditions in some level - otherwise they’d be long gone

Yes and it's women who up hold the traditions. Women who are. scared that without a man they are nothing. Women who are desperate for marriage and cling to men who clearly don't want them. Women who are desperate for affirmation and approval from all the men in their lives.

Women who call other women killjoys and miseries if they don't join in with these traditions.

There comes a point where you make a stand, yes names are patriarchal until women claim them.

We need to stop believing the big lie of a 'happy ever after' and start fighting for relationships based on equality, respect and love.

@TheBulb sorry I don't want to sound rude..but what is your point?

Windows - I really don’t think I’ve ever been in a position where I was desperate for marriage. Nor do I need to cling to any man - nothing remotely as dramatic as that.

If I was desperate, I’d have lower expectations. Or maybe I might have felt compelled to propose to a man myself, as is so often the advice in MN. Thanks but no thanks.

I don’t define myself in relation to men, but I do define myself as a woman and I know what I’m attracted to in a man and the kind of relationship dynamic I prefer.

There are threads on here where women delight in telling the tale of how their DH proposed to them while they were on the loo . Or when they were putting the garbage out or vomiting, or something equally ridiculous. And some people on MN seem to think this is hilarious. Or “why propose at all - just have a conversation on the bus or whatever.” But where do you think these relationships will be ten years down the line?

Also, TheBulb, it is perfectly valid for someone to have a bad relationship with their own father and consequently a bad association to their surname. Surely you can see that.

OK, I've read the thread so apologies if I have missed the explanation for this:

A lot of posters are arguing that asking a father's permission to marry his daughter is nothing to do with misogyny, or patriarchal traditions of ownership but about "respect". Has anyone explained in what way it shows respect? To whom is it showing respect? How does it show respect? Because I've thought about it and I can't work out an answer that doesn't involve some degree of men's ownership of women. I would be glad to be enlightened.

Why can't so called feminists accept that our greatest victory has been choice ?

I can choose to have my husbands name. I can choose to have my birth name. .
I , in fact spent many years with my lovely ex husbands name .. and he comes from a culture where taking the husbands name is unusual. I had no pressure to make any choices because as an adult female with a functioning brain I would of told anyone with an opinion to fuck right off. No one business but mine.

Fully able, fully competent and fully aware , I chose his name. That is feminism in its essence for me.

But where do you think these relationships will be ten years down the line?

Eh? That makes NO sense. Are you actually suggesting that the longevity of a marriage is dependent on where and how the proposal took place?

Fucking hell, someone alert Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes because he proposed at the top of the Eiffel Tower and they lasted a record-breaking five and a half years. Clearly if only he'd put some proper thought into it...

In the exact same way I can choose to allow my husband to ask my fathers permission (or would have done if he hadn't been dead for 40 yrs). Again, no one's business but mine. This is the big difference of today's culture of female empowerment.

Why can't so called feminists accept that our greatest victory has been choice ?

Why can't the hard of thinking accept that without the so-called, sour-faced, joy sucking, militant feminists (have I got all those insults we've had so far right?) none of us would have had that choice?

Who the bloody hell do you think was fighting for it?

Fully able, fully competent and fully aware , I chose his name. That is feminism in its essence for me

Yes your ability to choose was fought for by feminists it is not a feminist choice though.

Why can't so called feminists accept that our greatest victory has been choice

I don't think the posters who dislike this tradition are 'so called feminists' I think they are actual feminists. With principles and everything.

Many posters are working under the misapprehension that their individual choice has no impact on wider society and that society has no impact on them. A rather naive belief.