To wonder what happens when your boyfriend asks your father for your hand...

[PumpkinLatteMyArse]

And then he says no?

Do adults just not get married then?

And again, why could your wife have that converstation with her own parents, to check they were happy?

It’s not at all ludicrous, THEson. If you ask someone for permission to do something, but would have gone ahead without thinking twice even if they’d said no, then there’s not much ‘respect’ involved.

That’s entirely without considering the failure of respect towards a woman by asking her father for her hand — which is cringe-inducing.

The woman who thinks this is ‘sweet’ or ‘romantic’ or a nice tradition’ has really drunk the patriarchal Kool Aid and/or has not struggled free of something pernicious in her upbringing and/or education.

Wouldn't your dad be a bit ashamed of you if you can't make your own mind up?

You need his permission to make adult decisions. Wouldn't that make him feel like he failed as you are clearly incapable as functioning as an adult in an adult relationship?

Back to the name inheritance issue.... Of course your birth name is your given name, but (sorry to shout) WHY IS IT YOUR FATHER’S NAME AND NOT YOUR MOTHER’S?

Yes, girls are conditioned to change their names on marriage in a way boys are not, but how did they get that “maiden” name in the first place? It was passed through the patriarchal line, not the matriarchal line.

If you can’t see that this is all part and parcel of the same patriarchal tradition as wives taking the husband’s name, I don’t know what to say.

Where I come from, it’s a more “traditional” culture than in Britain in many ways. Nevertheless, a child receives both parents’ names as default and these are hyphenated.

And the traditions of patriarchy have to stop somewhere.

My name is my name. I got it from my dad but made it my own. I have kept my name and would have passed it on if I had had daughters.

You can pander to traditions or you can stop them. The good thing is we get to choose we don't have to mindlessly follow tradition. All those nasty, rabid feminists of the past gave us choices.

I can see it, Pa1oma, of course, but when that argument is brought up on these threads, it’s invariably brought up to support women taking their husband’s name on marriage according to the logic that your birth surname is ‘really your father’s name, thus not really yours, so it’s all the same thing, so take your husband’s name, na na na na na’ etc etc.

What I am saying is that, yes, children defaulting to their father’s surname is a patriarchal tradition, but that is the case for sons as well as daughters, and no one suggests that men’s birth surnames are not really theirs because they are their fathers’, so they should change them on marriage because ‘it’s all the same thing’.

OP I can see what you mean - it is odd what is the point of asking if the 'wrong' answer makes no difference.

My BIL asked my elderly DGPs if he could have their blessing to marry my Dsis. It meant a lot to my DGF - even though he drummed into all of his female GC to be independent and never rely on a man. My other BIL didn't do this, and it didn't make much difference although this sibling wasn't close to my DGPs.

I don't know, I suppose life's too short, do what makes you happy. If you see it as a way of involving your family that's nice, if you view it as offensive or disrespectful then you wouldn't be with someone who would do it anyway and again it's nice as your with someone who holds your viewpoint.

”Back to the name inheritance issue.... Of course your birth name is your given name, but (sorry to shout) WHY IS IT YOUR FATHER’S NAME AND NOT YOUR MOTHER’S?”

Sorry to shout YOU’LL HAVE TO ASK MY MOTHER AND FATHER WHY THEY CHOSE TO FOLLOW PATRIARCHAL TRADITIONS AS I WAS NOT A PART OF THAT DECISION.

Just because a woman’s parents chose to follow a patriarchal decision 30 years earlier doesn’t mean a woman is hypocritical for not doing similar 30 years later. It’s called progress, and that’s how these traditions eventually fade away.

Hear, hear Windows. My mother, now in her 70s, grew up in a deeply religious, patriarchal society, left school at 12 and worked essentially as a live-in servant until she married my father at 21, an extremely timid, conformist woman with no education, independent life experience, from the bottom of the class ladder, who married into a household of men (my father lived with his father, brother and great uncle) for whom she housekept through seven pregnancies on a shoestring.

It is hardly surprising that it never occurred to her not to take her husband’s name, just as it never occurred to her to protest about the marriage bar, being churched, the lack of availability of a means to prevent pregnancy etc.

I, on the other hand, have had a very different life. It would be far less excusable if I witlessly took DH’s name, or gave it to our child, who has both.

Yy, flowery.

I think unless you inherit your mother’s name or a hyphenated version of both your parent’s names, you can’t argue that your name is not patriarchal. You can own it as “your” name by all means, but you can’t avoid the fact that it was passed to you via a patriarchal line. Of course, if you choose to not change it on marriage and pass your name to the children, then you have indeed broken the patriarchal line. However, not everyone wants to do this.

The good news is, women are now free to chose. We are not making decisions in the same context as we were 100 years ago. Not in Britain anyway.

My DH asked for my DF’s “permission”. He proposed with a ring. I was “given away”; it was male speeches at the wedding etc etc. I have DH’s name. I know exactly where these traditions come from and what they mean. However, I also know who I am in the context of my relationship in the here and now and I’m quite certain that I have the agency to pick and choose which traditions to adhere to and which to not. Nobody has to do anything these days. If women do something, it’s because they want to. They are comfortable and confident enough in themselves to form their own interpretations of traditions within a modern context.

I think unless you inherit your mother’s name or a hyphenated version of both your parent’s names, you can’t argue that your name is not patriarchal.

But your mothers name will have been her fathers. So what you are saying is you cant change it unless we all change names completely.

I have my grandmothers maiden name. But I accept it's her fathers name.

”I think unless you inherit your mother’s name or a hyphenated version of both your parent’s names, you can’t argue that your name is not patriarchal.”

I haven’t seen anyone making that argument?

”Of course, if you choose to not change it on marriage and pass your name to the children, then you have indeed broken the patriarchal line. However, not everyone wants to do this.”

Of course. Some people want to keep the patriarchal society intact. These people are mostly men. Bit disappointing when they are women, who are the ones who have suffered because of the patriarchal society.

Do you not feel a bit like you should be the first to know?!
I'm glad I wasn't because DH planned to propose on Christmas Day, DM told him that I'd said to her before that I felt a proposal should be separate to other occasions and why not wait a few weeks as we were going on holiday, and to do it then. He took her advice and I'm glad he did!

They are comfortable and confident enough in themselves to form their own interpretations of traditions within a modern context.

I do think if a woman has thought about this, the sexist connotations and still decided to go ahead. That's her choice.

Except no one on this thread can answer why they feel permission needs to be asked. Or give an answer as to why they did it, fully expecting to ignore the answer if it wasnt what they wanted or why the woman couldn't have that converstation.

So they havent thought about it. They have done it, like women changed their name (mainly in the past) without even thinking about it.

If someone said 'well I know its sexist and and I would have done it anyway. But I felt dad would appreciate it'

That would at least answer the question. Let's be honest no one does everything 100% in line with feminism. I have no issue with people doing it. But trying to say it's about respect, family values, respecting their in laws decisions, chivalrous is just bollocks.

“But your motjer’sname Will have been her father’s”

Yes, but I guess by giving her name to you, then she had broken the patriarchal tradition. Just like if you gave your name to your DC.

When a child is just as likely to inherit their mother’s name as their father’s, then the patriarchal name tradition will be a thing of the past.

But anyone with their father’s name shouldn’t really deny the reality of where it came from. Nor should they then berate women for taking their husbands’ name on marriage, if that’s what they choose to do.

I have to say this is one of the most thought provoking threads I've read in a long time. Thank you op for asking the question.

I'm still very much on the side of I would like my oh to talk to my dad about it.

The arguments for both sides are very compelling but also in some places nasty which I'm disappointed in because you shouldn't have to resort to spiteful when talking about something as simple as a tradition and it's relivence to this day and age...

I may even consider talking to my oh mum about us getting married when we do decide to, for the interest of equality.

Nor should they then berate women for taking their husbands’ name on marriage, if that’s what they choose to do

I fully accept people make different choices. However, I have every right on a discussion thread to berate people for making sexist decisions that keep women infantilised.

something as simple as a tradition

There is nothing simple about traditions. They are how societies control their members.

OP you’re not going to get many positive posts around this. Mumsnetters get massively hot under the collar about BFs who ask their GF’s fathers for their hand.

My husband did it, I know it meant so much to my lovely father and he never would have said no (despite my parents both being very unhappy about our living together before we got married). Had he said no, I think I would still have married my DH. However, whether he would have felt comfortable actually asking me is another issue...

“However, I have every right on a discussion thread to berate people for making sexist decisions that keep women infantilised”

Well yes you do because it’s a discussion.

But please accept that not all women do feel “infantilised”. Just as some women feel patronised if a man opens a door for them, many others will see this as chivalrous and an attractive trait in a man. There are always these kind of discussions on MN. Look at the “who should pay on dates threads, they’re never ending. I guess if we were all attracted to the same qualities in men, the world would be a boring place.

**something as simple as a tradition

**There is nothing simple about traditions. They are how societies control their members.

But that's my opinion, no more right or wrong than yours. To me it is simple because it is something that doesn't count and isn't strictly necessary in this day and age.

But it's a nice gesture IF asking for blessing/premission/discussing proposing with the bride's father matters to her!

I'm close to my parents, I talk to them and ask their opinions because I trust their judgement, doesn't mean I always listen to them because I am my own person and do what I want anyway. But for the reason that I talk to them and ask their opinions I would appreciate my oh talking to them about this big, legal decision we would be making, even though I know the answer already.

When a child is just as likely to inherit their mother’s name as their father’s, then the patriarchal name tradition will be a thing of the past.

Yes. Which is why starting now to keep your own name, is important. Even if it's your dads

But that's my opinion, no more right or wrong than yours. To me it is simple because it is something that doesn't count and isn't strictly necessary in this day and age.

I see your point. But I would be asking why its important to her AND why she wouldn't be having that converstation herself, ifbits important to her.

I didn’t even tell my Dad I was getting married! We ran away on the quiet, my children walked me down the aisle.