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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that if you are committed enough to decide to have children....

611 replies

Oakenbeach · 27/04/2019 09:29

....you should also be committed enough to each other to get married (assuming that you don’t have any objections to marriage in principle), and that it makes no sense at all for couples to plan to have children (and I stress ‘plan’) before deciding whether to get married.

OP posts:
Thewarrenerswife · 29/04/2019 21:58

@Graphista - you nailed it.

Alsohuman · 29/04/2019 22:04

She always does

Graphista · 29/04/2019 22:09

Blushthanks Grin

LipstickHandbagCoffee · 29/04/2019 22:17

Equally I didn’t want to get married we had that big discussion early on
Lived separately before we cohabitated (I didn’t want to move in too soon) liked flat sharing
Our shared definitives are/were
Unmarried
No joint finances,retain sole accounts
Children double barrelled names
Nominate each other as beneficiaries etc

Blackbi2d · 30/04/2019 08:20

I don’t think she does. I think she contradicts herself and has an alarmist attitude towards not being married and makes huge sweeping assumptions about women. Plenty of unmarried women are more secure and better off than married women.

I think it’s utterly tragic that posters are pushing marriage as the answer to female security. Push women getting their own security to the extent marriage is neither here nor there.

BertrandRussell · 30/04/2019 08:22

“I think it’s utterly tragic that posters are pushing marriage as the answer to female security.”
Yep.

Thewarrenerswife · 30/04/2019 08:55

There are always examples of happy people in both situations. But I agree with Graphista, that MN is full of posts from women who are not secure, and regretfully so. Having gone through all the commitment of having children, stepping away from a career to do so, pooling all assets, but accepted their partners reluctance to say forever with a ceremony.

Now waiting for the flurry of defensive posters. I know I know, you didn’t want to get married.... just like my daughter doesn’t like to tidy her room. I’m sure your partner proposed many times, and you just said, ‘no. I don’t want to’. And now you’re proud because your kids are just as ‘not bothered’. Well I pity the women who end up in a relationship with those sons, and I call bull shit on anyone who say’s their kid doesn’t get excited about going to a wedding.

calpop · 30/04/2019 09:08

Totally agree, it is tragic. I'm late 40s and have seen so many women now utterly shafted by the institution of marriage. The problem as I see it is it gives a false sense of security. All these women that say oh I'm happy to stay at home now I'm married or have a "little job" as he goes out and earns the big bucks. Have no idea where the money is. Don't know the internet banking passwords etc. Then are devastated when they hit 50 and the bloke trades them in for younger model/girl at work/girl on the internet/decides he s really a women. Messy divorce ensure where of course he has hidden all the money and the poor woman is left to pick up the pieces and try and learn to be financially self sufficient in middle age - not easy. Not to mention the frankly obcence cost of getting divorced. Far better to choose to be finacially self sufficient from the day you left home imo, and for me a big part of that was not getting married.

This pattern is getting less common, I hope and there are of course good men out there who wouldnt behave like that and good marriages. But christ Ive seen this enough times now. As well as younger women getting shafted by their 'self employed" husbands earlier on, who claim to earn a pittance for CSA purposes but are driving flash cars and going out on tinder dates with hidden money. Their wives left trapped at home with very young children, desperately trying to find work that gives them.any income after childcare after being out of the workplace for years because he promised to do all the providing but is now shagging someone from the gym/work/cycling club, where he spent all his time. Reduced to doing minimum wage jobs or getting caught up in crappy MLM scams like Forever Living. Or the women whose husbands become feckless idiots once married and cant work due to depression/bad back/alcohol/drugs, leaving the woman to run themselves into the ground doing all work and childcare, but still expecting a divorce payout, as is the case with a friend of mine currently. I went to the big, expensive wedding 6 years ago and now she married to an AWOL addict with 2 tiny children and only hears from him in letters demanding money.

I know this is a very cynical view and not all marriages will be like this. But enough will to make it seem like a mugs game to me. My partner and I have joint finances, which I control. I have a career, as does he. If we spilt, there's no costly divorce, no hidden assets. We have mutual wills. Property in joint names. The only disadvantage I can see is that I wouldnt get a state widows pension in the event of his death and we cant transfer assets for IHT purposes. I dont want or need a widows pension and anyway, why should I get one when Ive always worked? I have a private pension. The IHT thing can be mitigated by IHT planning.

But that for me is enough to answer the question that the OP is puzzled about - why many women choose not to get married.

thatmustbenigelwiththebrie · 30/04/2019 09:24

I am childfree (and intend to stay that way) and not married to my DP. We have a mortgage together.

Can anyone tell me what the point o getting married is, because I really can't see one?

He is self-employed and earns slightly more than me. We contribute to the house and bills 50/50. He has lots of other assets in the business (machinery mainly) which he has a will for and to which I would not consider myself entitled because they are not mine and I have done nothing towards them.

So what gains or disadvantages are there by us not marrying?

Meandmetoo · 30/04/2019 09:26

I also agree with Graphistas latest lost.

I get that it's hard for some women who might feel pissed off that others can find the same level of security and happiness without having to be married, as if it belittles your marriage and its meaning. I also understand that some just find the concept of a woman saying "no, I don't want to do that" hard to accept and then attempt to insult by comparing us to teenagers. While I'm against marriage for me I wouldn't demean it by comparing it to tidying a room though :(

My son's are being brought up to respect women's decisions, that no means no and it only needs saying once, and there's nothing that can't be solved with a discussion. don't waste any time feeling sorry for future partners (whether they be male or female), none of us can say what stance our kids will take, for instance Your own dc may well decide marriage isn't for them. No one can say how our DC will turn out. We can only hope they will be happy and find someone who wants the same as them. Whatever that may be :)

calpop · 30/04/2019 09:41

The disadvantages of not getting married, as I understand it, are that you wouldnt get a state widows pension in the event of his death (why should you if you work and have a career and your own pension?) and you cant transfer assets for Inheritance Tax +can be mitigates by IHT planning, many people not over threshold anyway etc).

The advantages, supposedly, are legal protection for the woman. You are entitled to some of the assets in the event of a divorce even if you didnt financially contribute to them or took time out from working to.look after kids. Again, why it this necessary if all assets are in joint name, you have wills or, in your case, dont have children? I dont see it either. I only see the costly and bitter divorces and frustrated middle aged women stuck at home once the kids have left.

Thewarrenerswife · 30/04/2019 09:45

@thatmustbenigelwiththebrie
The OP asked if you're going to commit to kids, you should be committed enough to each other to get married. Because having kids is way more of a commitment than a marriage ceremony.

Meandmetoo · 30/04/2019 09:46

Thatmust - any advantages/disadvantages all depend on your personal situation. Marriage doesn't advantage everybody. If you've got everything covered legally so you'll be protected without needing to be married then there's probably no disadvantage. I'm actually at an advantage by not being married.

Lou12124 · 30/04/2019 10:44

@Graphista

Clearly you cant think highly of your husband then if that's how you feel most men are when it comes to break ups! And from all your rants of 'facts' and legal bullshit you couldn't have married just for love because you are so caught up on the legal side of things? Your contradicting yourself my dear.

I get on better with my MIL than my partner does and she adores her grandchildren and she is not that childish to not look after them because me and my partner have split. She looks after them because she loves them. That's what families do. Your family can not be as close knit as some others are. Me and my kids are not vulnerable at all. Fact. And I'm getting defensive because people like you are so quick to jump on what other people are doing/ how they SHOULD be doing it and slating peoples ways of doing it. Instead of looking at your own life and maybe fixing alot of what needs fixing in your own! I cannot stand people on mumsnet who JUDGE and think they know everything. Have an opinion that's fine but dont throw the 'this is what should be done'down peoples throats. You dont need to tag me to answer your questions because I havent asked you questions. Other people have asked you them. I am stating LIKE THE ORIGINAL POST SAYS if you have children you should be committed enough to be married. I am responding to that point. You dont need to be married to show commitment and definitely dont need to married just because you have had children with that person. I disagree with everything you have to say. I'm far from naive I just dont need a piece of paper to prove commitment. And my partner cares far more about his children than any legal shit that would come in to it. He would always put their happiness first. Clearly if you have children your husband wouldn't hence why you've had to marry!

Lou12124 · 30/04/2019 10:51

@Blackbi2d

👏 you are 100% right. Pretty sure you have just nailed it 👍🏼

Thewarrenerswife · 30/04/2019 11:12

You don’t need a piece of paper to show you’re committed. But if it’s juts a piece of paper, what’s the big deal? What’s the problem with saying ‘I’m throwing it all in with this person?’. Because that’s what marriage is. Creeping along on the outskirts of commitment by slowly moving in together, keeping everything separate is like having one foot permanently out of the door. Yes it may last, but you’re hedging your bets.

@Calpop
How does getting married make you more susceptible to being left with nothing?! Your bank accounts don’t automatically merge when you sign the register. And your job doesn’t disappear either. Those are life choices that require commitment.... marriage is just a solid affirmation of that which many men are sacred of. And apparently lots of women according to you. Because we all know those female friends who have turned down umpteen proposals Hmm

calpop · 30/04/2019 11:19

Because he's entitled to your assets as well ...

Meandmetoo · 30/04/2019 11:24

Anyone starting to wonder why some are so hell-bent on getting the unmarrieds to marry?

why does it bother you? It's not bothering us (with exception of any who want to marry but their dp's are refusing). Is it that you feel marriage is undermined somehow because people can still be as committed and secure? Like people with same sex kids who get defensive when someone says they have a girl and a boy so their family is complete?

If you're secure, happy and have what you want, don't waste time worrying about others who have the same thing just using different methods. It doesn't take anything away, it's just different wants and needs, that's all.

Thewarrenerswife · 30/04/2019 11:53

I agree with OP’s original statement, and that is the point of posting.

You disagree with the OP.

I’m not trying to get the unmarried to marry. Just calling a few out on the BS about marriage screwing over those who do choose to make that commitment.

Meandmetoo · 30/04/2019 12:37

Considering the op has said "if not against marriage in principle" (or words to that effect) then I'm not sure I do disagree tbh. It is a conversation that needs to happen so both know where they stand.

And marriage CAN screw people over Confused, ive seen it hapoen, so its not BS at all. Conversely not being married can also screw people over. It all depends on personal circumstances.

ineedaknittedhat · 30/04/2019 14:06

Most men value their assets over children. They know that if their relationship breaks down the mother will have to take responsibility for the children and he can easily avoid paying child support.

However, if he gets married he'll be expected to share the assets in the event of a divorce.

InTheHeatofLisbon · 30/04/2019 14:48

Most men value their assets over children. They know that if their relationship breaks down the mother will have to take responsibility for the children and he can easily avoid paying child support.

Enabled by the system to do so I might add!

How depressing.

InTheHeatofLisbon · 30/04/2019 14:50

I’m not trying to get the unmarried to marry. Just calling a few out on the BS about marriage screwing over those who do choose to make that commitment

Some would be protected by marriage, possibly even a majority. Especially women having to take career breaks etc.

But it wouldn't protect every woman. If I were to marry and DP demanded half of my assets, I'd be fucked. He wouldn't, and we aren't married and won't be marrying, so it's irrelevant in our case. BUT I'd be much more vulnerable married than unmarried in the event of a split.

InTheHeatofLisbon · 30/04/2019 14:52

No one has given a single good reason on here not to be.

You haven't RTFT then, because I have and others have too.

multivac · 30/04/2019 14:58

Yes it may last, but you’re hedging your bets

Isn't that exactly what everyone who is saying 'no marriage, no children' doing? Given that the reason they are saying it is, generally, 'to protect me and the kids when we split up'?

It's all so tedious and circular. Really, it has nothing to do with airy-fairy notions of 'commitment'. It's about pragmatism. Either you have it sorted (through marriage or by other means), or you don't. And that's what the conversation needs to be about, if people really care about the vulnerability of others.