To think that if you are committed enough to decide to have children....

[Oakenbeach]

....you should also be committed enough to each other to get married (assuming that you don’t have any objections to marriage in principle), and that it makes no sense at all for couples to plan to have children (and I stress ‘plan’) before deciding whether to get married.

I think it more important to actually be able to afford them rather than be married.

GuineaPiglet UNLESS a dispute is registered which is what I said.

I think it more important to actually be able to afford them rather than be married.

That's certainly important but then we have people on this very thread who say they can't afford £120 to get married but have had planned babies - who cost a damn sight more!

It's worrying in what circumstances people decide its sensible to plan and have children.

Examples currently on mn include couples without a home of their own, who've been together a few months, with various relationship issues ongoing...bonkers!

Several kids live around me from babies to 12 years, those are the ones I interact with.and without a doubt those in the 7 - 12 year group all wish the adults in household would get married. Do we ever consider that there may be an element of insecurity in the non married situation for kids?

I agree.

If the man you're with you believe is marriage material and you both believe in marriage then why wouldn't you marry him before having kids?

Each to their own op. On the other hand one could argue that marriage is an outdated patriarchal institution designed to keep women as property but as many argue...financial protection etc.

Lets be sensible shall we? Surely it depends on the quality of the marriage? So if the parents are happliy married then there will be better outcomes for the kids...if unhappliy married...not so much..

My friend married and divorced a millionaire. He pays zero maintenance as he has spaffed it all.

Rosettarose0808

Isn’t actually up to the individuals what they do? Married not married living together not living together children no children - as long as everyone is happy safe and content let people be!

^ This

I've been married for 27 years and think having children is way more of a commitment than marriage is. You are tied to that person for life.

"Several kids live around me from babies to 12 years, those are the ones I interact with.and without a doubt those in the 7 - 12 year group all wish the adults in household would get married. Do we ever consider that there may be an element of insecurity in the non married situation for kids?"

no, my kids have known since around age 5 that there are different family set ups, some married some not. Shame for those kids who are getting an unrealistic view of marriage, like it's that that's the golden thread holding things together rather than the actual relationship. They'll realise though as they mature that their parents not being married makes no difference to their security.

I don’t believe you. They will get exactly the same upbringing. My dc didn’t care too hoots at that age, it was something they weren’t even really aware of. Now they’re teens they’re begging us not to. All kids care about is food, warmth, a peaceful environment,love, friends and things they enjoy doing NOT whether their parents have a piece of paper as a financial insurance policy.

Several kids live around me from babies to 12 years, those are the ones I interact with.and without a doubt those in the 7 - 12 year group all wish the adults in household would get married. Do we ever consider that there may be an element of insecurity in the non married situation for kids

How do you know this?? My 7 year old wants us to get married. Her sole reason is so she can wear a bridesmaid dress. To my DC, our relationship doesn't look any different to those of their friends' married parents. Children only understand security in their own context so it's nonsense to say the children don't feel secure if their parents aren't married - they don't understand the concept of marriage in the same way as adults.

For my DC, the worrying thing is when friends (married) parents have got divorced.

And I think it's our responsibility as parents to challenge this, because if young kids are really thinking marriage = security absolute, they are getting a very narrow view of relationships and how various ones are made up.

Not to mention, I don't want my DC growing up being small minded towards single parent families.

I do think this, but it’s an unfashionable view 🤷🏼‍♀️

I'm not against the principles of marriage but it's only with maturity and wisdom to learn that the marriage paper isn't what binds people together. I've seen too many divorces. I've never commited publicly that I will stay with my husband. I don't like breaking promises. Everyday our relationship needs food and healing. We're still looking together after 15 years despite his debt issues (which has got better). People in marriages have all sorts of problems. What you compromise with and live with is very personal. One poster said they can't live with someone with poor money management. You can put guard rails in. I can't live with infidelity but plenty of people do.

“Do we ever consider that there may be an element of insecurity in the non married situation for kids”

There is an element of insecurity for kids whose parents are not in a secure, happy, respectful relationship regardless of the status of that relationship.

@manicmij how is there an element of insecurity? Surely that would come from the security of home life and parents union, rather than marriage?

I grew up with my parents unmarried. They were unusual in not being separated, unlike many of my friends (married) parents. I think I might have wanted them to marry at some point. It was totally for the dress!

Does make you think there are perhaps other issues if kids are commenting to someone who just 'lives near them' that they wish their parents were married.

I could say kids where I live tell me they don't want their parents to marry because they have seen how awful the divorce process can be for their friends. I won't though, because it would be bollocks.

I don’t think YABU.
I wouldn’t even move in with my partner until we’d set a date for the wedding. I figured if committing to me forever gave him the hebe-jeebees, why would I want to get into a life long commitment such as kids with him?

Yes it’s old fashioned, but what’s wrong with that? If it’s ‘just a piece of paper’ and it makes no difference to you, or the kids, why not just get married then?

I do find it odd that men and women would go ahead with the life changing and huge responsibility of bringing a life into this world, but won’t commit on a piece of paper.

And what you tolerate from your partner, like the poster whose partner still won’t get married, despite thinking they would once they’d had kids. You are setting the tone for what your daughters accept and your sons dole out. Would you want your daughter to be with someone who didn’t think she was worth marrying? Or kept stringing her along by talking about it but never went through with? What you accept in your own relationships sets the standards for your children. I want my daughter to have the self respect to know what she wants, and walk away if her partner doesn’t share the same beliefs. Equally, I want my son to see that marriage is a foundation for strength in a relationship, not something to be scared of. I want him to be damn sure she’s the one before he has kids. I was him to realise the seriousness of commitment, in the hope he doesn’t end up having multiple kids with multiple partners.

I have been married once, divorced one. My DP has been married twice, divorced twice. We both have kids from our marriages and one together. I’m not offended by marriage, but that bit of paper really means fuck all. Just another ruddy hurdle if it all goes tits up. Me & DP have been happily unmarried for 7 years. Long may it reign.

"Yes it’s old fashioned, but what’s wrong with that? If it’s ‘just a piece of paper’ and it makes no difference to you, or the kids, why not just get married then? "

Because, as well as not liking the idea of being married, if I were to marry dp I'd potentially lose way more than I'd potentially gain. So, nope.

"And what you tolerate from your partner, like the poster whose partner still won’t get married, despite thinking they would once they’d had kids. You are setting the tone for what your daughters accept and your sons dole out. "

And, wouldn't it be inappropriate for a mum to be telling her DC that their dad doesn't want to marry them? In that situation if the mum is satisfied enough with things to accept it wouldn't she just say "no, were not married, we don't need to be" rather than get her children involved in her problems? Isn't that a parenting 101 no no? Dont involve your kids in things like this?

Or from another angle; If DP hadn’t had kids before she was married she wouldn’t have a “problem” to not involve the kids with in the first place. And she wouldn’t be subconsciously telling her daughter it’s okay if a guy won’t commit, or her son that there’s something about marriage that should be avoided.

Whatever your circumstances with your partner and three divorces.... the fact is the huge majority of girls do want to get married in the beginning of their lives. All I’m saying is I hope my daughter holds out for a guy who has the strength of character to commit to that little piece of paper. And I hope she has the good sense not to have kids with a guy who won’t. If you want something different for your kids then that’s your prerogative.

Or another angle, mum wasn't bothered about getting married before kids.

It's never, ever ok to involve children in this issue. Basic parenting.