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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that if you are committed enough to decide to have children....

611 replies

Oakenbeach · 27/04/2019 09:29

....you should also be committed enough to each other to get married (assuming that you don’t have any objections to marriage in principle), and that it makes no sense at all for couples to plan to have children (and I stress ‘plan’) before deciding whether to get married.

OP posts:
Thewarrenerswife · 29/04/2019 13:48

So “Mum wasn’t bothered about getting married before having kids” Also you.... “it’s never ever ok to involve kids in this issue”.

Which is it? That there’s no issue, or don’t get the kids involved in ‘this issue’?

I don’t need a lecture on basic parenting.... I’m married, so there’s no issue to involve my kids in! Confused

But FYI, you are involving your kids when you make the choice to have them and not marry. You’re leading by example.

Like I said, it’s not an example I want to set, but your kids are your choice.

Meandmetoo · 29/04/2019 14:03

Sorry I think you're confused. I was directly referring to the below comment when I said about not involving kids:

"And what you tolerate from your partner, like the poster whose partner still won’t get married, despite thinking they would once they’d had kids. You are setting the tone for what your daughters accept and your sons dole out. "

As in, it only sets the tone if you make it a problem for the kids. They don't need to be aware that mum is fucked off dp won't marry her.

And I wasn't lecturing you at all, unless you have infact done this to your children and involved them in non-marriage dramas? I'm guessing not, so there's no lecture from me to you. Quite unlike the lecturing towards people who aren't married.

You are right about leading by example though, my DC are aware that marriage does not demonstrate commitment, actions do. They are aware that some people are married, some aren't, and it doesn't matter as long as everyone involved is happy (and if either of the parents aren't, don't bloody bring the kids in to it). As I say, I want them to have a rounded modern view of the world and the various relationship and family set ups there are Smile

BertrandRussell · 29/04/2019 14:20

My children know that Dp and I had been together for more than 15 years before we had them. I reckon that must be quite reassuring......

calpop · 29/04/2019 14:26

Me too. My DP and I have been together for 3-4 x as long (25 years) as most of our friends who got married in our twenties, many of who's marriages lasted about 10 years or so. Some are on second or even third marriages now in that time. I can only think of one other couple still going from then. I think we are more comitted.

Meandmetoo · 29/04/2019 14:39

Same Bertrand. Funnily enough this came up about a year ago I'd say. ds2 asked me why I wasn't married to dp. I explained that we'd been together for 12+ years, lived together for 10, before deciding to have children, and we were both happy with not being married but some people prefer to be and that's fine too. I asked him why he asked,
and he said he wanted to wear a tuxedo "with one of those massive red belts" and have a party so wanted us to get married Hmm.

I bought him a mini tux anyway and threw him a 6th birthday party so he could wear it/have a party.

Thewarrenerswife · 29/04/2019 14:54

@Meandmetoo

"As in, it only sets the tone if you make it a problem for the kids. They don't need to be aware that mum is fucked off dp won't marry her...... You are right about leading by example though, my DC are aware that marriage does not demonstrate commitment, actions do. They are aware that some people are married, some aren't, and it doesn't matter as long as everyone involved is happy (and if either of the parents aren't, don't bloody bring the kids in to it)."

So you're saying lie to your kids? And where's that in parenting 101?

By lying to your kids think that it's okay to be fobbed off about marriage by your partner, when really you hate the fact, you are not letting them have a "rounded modern view of relationships", you are setting your kids up to accept the very thing that you hate.

It's one thing if you genuinely didn't care about getting married, that's a personal choice. But to actually really care, and say it really fucks you off that your partner blagged you, and now after you've had kids still won't commit. But then lie to your kids and say it's not important to get married, just because you got duped! Talk about drag your kids down by example.

And for everyone who will say they aren't married and are super happy, while all their married friends are on their third divorce. Really?! You forget that all of us on here also have friends, and relatives... and that's BS! Yes people who get married split, people who don't marry spilt. So I'll say it again, if its not that big of a deal, if it's just a piece of paper, what is the problem with marriage?

The OP asked, if you're ready for the commitment of children, shouldn't you be ready for the commitment of marriage? No one has given a single good reason on here not to be. Every comment against marriage revolves around finances, convenience and a quick bolt option. None of those things are conducive with having kids.

calpop · 29/04/2019 15:03

It's the patriachy innit?

I wanted to show my kids that women are truly equal to men, hence why I decided never to get married. I don't like the institution of marriage as it seems unequally weighted in favour of the man, to me, and I have (now) seen so many women fucked over by it, so I'm glad I saw that all those years ago.

If heterosexual civil partnerships were available at the time I would happily have done that.

BertrandRussell · 29/04/2019 15:13


The OP asked, if you're ready for the commitment of children, shouldn't you be ready for the commitment of marriage? No one has given a single good reason on here not to be.“

I have an excellent reason. I don’t want to be married.

DippyAvocado · 29/04/2019 16:05

I think I'm the poster whose DP didn't want to get married after we'd had the kids. I don't make it an issue with the kids. I don't even think of it as a major issue for me these days - I've had several years to accept the situation or otherwise and our relationship is good. What my kids will see is that it's possible to have a loving and secure relationship without being married. If they ask me when they're older, I'll tell them the truth that originally I wanted to be married but I've been happy with how the relationship works. I will teach them that all relationships involve compromise and it will be up to them what compromises they will be prepared to make in their relationships and it will be their decision if being married is an important issue to them.

DippyAvocado · 29/04/2019 16:07

As a sidenote, we will probably get a civil partnership if it becomes legal as that's a straightforward way to get the legalities tied up.

Meandmetoo · 29/04/2019 16:17

"So you're saying lie to your kids? And where's that in parenting 101? "
No, I'm saying don't involve them in relationship dramas. Sorry I thought that was clear.

"By lying to your kids think that it's okay to be fobbed off about marriage by your partner, when really you hate the fact, you are not letting them have a "rounded modern view of relationships", you are setting your kids up to accept the very thing that you hate. "

Who's lying? Lying about what? It's not lying to not involve your children in a "kids your dad doesn't love me because he won't marry me" shit.

"It's one thing if you genuinely didn't care about getting married, that's a personal choice. But to actually really care, and say it really fucks you off that your partner blagged you, and now after you've had kids still won't commit. But then lie to your kids and say it's not important to get married, just because you got duped! Talk about drag your kids down by example."

, again, not saying that. At all. You really are confused. I'm saying don't drag your kids into your relationship problems. That's not lying.

"The OP asked, if you're ready for the commitment of children, shouldn't you be ready for the commitment of marriage? No one has given a single good reason on here not to be. Every comment against marriage revolves around finances, convenience and a quick bolt option. None of those things are conducive with having kids."

A few of us have given a very excellent reason. Not wanting too :)

Thewarrenerswife · 29/04/2019 18:21

"Not wanting too" is the reason a teenager gives for not tidying their room.

When your kids ask: "where did you and Daddy get married" (usually when you go to a wedding), and "why didn't you and Daddy get married?", you're not going to be honest and say "because Daddy lied and said we would do it when we had more money, but that day came and he still wouldn't commit". You will be dishonest with your child and tell them marriage isn't necessary. Which it isn't... but it's nice and it's grown up.

I'm not confused @Meandmetoo, I'm as clear on this as I was with my partner. That's why I got married before I had kids, that's why I get to tell my kids the truth and it's really that simple.

DippyAvocado - I wasn't being accusatory. Your story mirrors many of my friends. I have seen the anguish and frustration, and it's played a big part in why I was so adamant I would not even move in until a date was set. I'm really glad that your relationship is good, and your kids are lucky to have both parents still together. Just out of curiosity, if your daughter asked for advice (if you don't have a DD, then hypothetically). If she had been in a relationship for a while, and it was looking like marriage/baby time, but her partner wouldn't commit to her. If she was frustrated by this, and she asked you how to handle it, what would you say?

Blackbi2d · 29/04/2019 18:37

I was truthful to my dc. I told them we didn’t believe in it, didn’t need to do it and more importantly didn’t want to. They find weddings as tedious and fake as we do.

They’ve never asked where we got married, just not interested.

Blackbi2d · 29/04/2019 18:39

Suspect there are plenty like us.

Blackbi2d · 29/04/2019 18:40

And not wanting to is a good enough reason for a whole host of things more worthy than tidying a room.Hmm

DippyAvocado · 29/04/2019 18:58

Something I've given some thought too Thewarrenerswife. I think the most important thing is to remain financially independent after having children. I'm also hoping by the time my DC are grown up it will be more common to share parenting 50:50 and there won't be the same pressure on women to feel they have to downgrade their careers. I think if men and women are more financially equal, the protections that marriage offers will become less important.

Meandmetoo · 29/04/2019 19:33

"Not wanting too" is the reason a teenager gives for not tidying their room. "

It's also what a woman says when she doesn't want to do something.

"When your kids ask: "where did you and Daddy get married" (usually when you go to a wedding), and "why didn't you and Daddy get married?", you're not going to be honest and say "because Daddy lied and said we would do it when we had more money, but that day came and he still wouldn't commit". You will be dishonest with your child and tell them marriage isn't necessary. Which it isn't... but it's nice and it's grown up. "

Well, I won't, because that's not true in my case.

"I'm not confused @Meandmetoo, I'm as clear on this as I was with my partner. That's why I got married before I had kids, that's why I get to tell my kids the truth and it's really that simple. "

You were confused about posts etc. I wouldn't tell you you're confused about your relationship, how would I know?
I've told my kids the truth. But say i was in a situation where I wanted to marry and dp didn't, and i still chose to stay, I probably wouldn't think it's a good idea to tell the children it was because their dad didn't want to commit. That's a horrible thing to do to a child.

Lou12124 · 29/04/2019 20:01

@Graphista

You are very good at jumping to assumptions. Not that it is any of your business but the account is joint. My MIL would be the childcare as she is now. Yes I am on the mortgage and i know he would not kick up about who leaves if were to split.
I dont quite understand why you're jumping on the 'legal' bandwagon when the OP is about commitment to be married?
I feel very sorry for you. Such a shame you have had to married just to feel secure and that your 'legally' entitled to whatever you're after. Myself and partner have morals. When children are involved myself nor my partner would be so selfish to bicker over materialistic things. He would support the children as would I and I would be more than capable of supporting myself.
Think you have too much time on your hands....I havent even read the bible length story after my part because in actual fact it's boring and people like you bore me. You must lead a very boring life.

Alsohuman · 29/04/2019 20:34

And you know the argument has been lost when personal insults appear.

BertrandRussell · 29/04/2019 21:07

“"Not wanting too" is the reason a teenager gives for not tidying their room.“

It s also the reason I am not married.
And what I told my children when they asked. I can’t actually remembered how it came up- one of them asked about wedding pictures I think. But as I said- the fact that we had been happily together for more that 15 years before we had them was quite reassuring.

LipstickHandbagCoffee · 29/04/2019 21:12

I have genuinely never wanted to be married,the thought of it repels me
Not wanting to be married is in itself a valid reason same as people who know they want to be married,they know they want marriage

For me I see no tangible reason to marry. The history of marriage,the patriarchal association.societal expectations. I’m nonplussed about notion of family name. I have a family we have a name.my dp and I don’t have the same name. Our children have double barrelled name

I don’t think marriage is essential!i do think it’s esssential to discuss the big issues early on and establish what each other’s definitive ideological positions are

Graphista · 29/04/2019 21:20

Not assuming at all simply responding and even asking questions for clarity on certain points based on what people are posting - quite the opposite of assuming actually.

"Not that it is any of your business but the account is joint" which account? The children's? If so that still doesn't answer any of the questions I asked. And no you don't have to answer, but for your and your DCs sake I'd recommend you know the answers yourself - and by checking with the bank/a lawyer not just your partners say so

"My MIL would be the childcare as she is now" thats YOU assuming she'd still be willing to and you'd actually want her to. Splits can quickly and unexpectedly become acrimonious it's rare they're completely amicable. I think you're naive to assume this arrangement would continue. Even in cases of bereavement I've seen such arrangements falter

"Yes I am on the mortgage and i know he would not kick up about who leaves if were to split." I asked if your previous statement about the family home meant you weren't on the tenancy or mortgage I didn't assume. Though it did suggest you likely weren't from how you worded. You STILL absolutely CANNOT "guarantee" how he'll behave at all! As myself and others have said and the proof of this as I said before is hundreds of women who have been through a split, thought their now ex wouldn't behave in certain ways, only to find they're then completely screwed! Don't be naive

"I dont quite understand why you're jumping on the 'legal' bandwagon when the OP is about commitment to be married?" Because words are cheap. Saying you're committed is meaningless without backing it up legally. So very very often on these very boards women post about men they are living with, having children with, supporting the man's career by being a sahm, sacrificing a lot for the man's benefit...BUT he won't marry them. Then he "leaves" (often for a younger woman), except it's the 1st woman has to find somewhere else for her and the kids to live at her own expense, has to drag any pittance of child maintenance out of him, and certainly doesn't get any settlement or financial recognition of all they've done. Why? Because he was never really committed to the first woman

"I feel very sorry for you. Such a shame you have had to married just to feel secure and that your 'legally' entitled to whatever you're after."

ODFOD! That's not why I married! I married because we loved each other, were committed to each other at the time and it was right for our relationship

"Myself and partner have morals. When children are involved myself nor my partner would be so selfish to bicker over materialistic things" oh ffs you really ARE that naive! It's not a case of 'bickering over materialistic things' it's a case of the REALITY of being responsible enough to ensure your child/rens security in terms of NEEDS - housing, food, clothes, heat, light... Things your children will still need in the event of your relationship breaking down but could be damn hard for you to sort if you're an unmarried sahm with no assets put out on your ear by your now ex - which can and does happen - a lot

"He would support the children as would I and I would be more than capable of supporting myself." again you've NO guarantee of that. Even with cms it can be murder getting cm even WITH everything clear cut on paternity and his earnings (many nrps exploit loopholes to avoid paying) and you don't know that you could continue in your current job depending on certain circumstances

"Think you have too much time on your hands....I havent even read the bible length story after my part because in actual fact it's boring and people like you bore me. You must lead a very boring life." that just makes you sound defensive (because you're realising how vulnerable you and your kids are?) and that you know you've lost the argument

It makes no odds to me what you do or don't read - but not properly informing yourself or preparing yourself for the most likely eventualities (many relationships break down, in all relationships one of you eventually dies) is naive, ignorant and irresponsible. And you don't just have yourself to consider.

"i do think it’s esssential to discuss the big issues early on and establish what each other’s definitive ideological positions are" while I agree to a point what many are failing to acknowledge is that people's ideological positions change. Especially if influenced by someone else. Again one only needs to read the relationship, divorce and lone parent boards to see how much people can change in the aftermath of a split.

LipstickHandbagCoffee · 29/04/2019 21:28

Yes ideological positions shift state vs private school is common
However if one doesn’t ask the big question about marriage etc it fall into realms of assumption
Assumption on both side
Woman assumes man will change his mind become the marrying sort
Man assumes she’s happy to cohabitate and their happy with the kids

Graphista · 29/04/2019 21:37

Yes I agree it is bewildering to me why couples don't discuss honestly the major factors affecting their relationship.

I wouldn't have had children without being married and I wanted first child before 30 (gynae issues) which I was upfront and honest about with ex husband.,

If he hadn't been in agreement I wouldn't have continued the relationship.

As I think I said on this thread (may have been on another) I know people who've married without even discussing whether to have children at all! And that's led to major relationship issues including divorce.

Likewise I don't understand people moving in together without at least discussing children, marriage, how finances will be managed etc

Avoiding these discussions rarely ends well.

Alsohuman · 29/04/2019 21:39

It's cohabit. Cohabitate isn't a real word.

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