To leave one niece out?

[HipHipHippoo]

My sister has 3 DDs aged 12, 7 and 2. I have posted before about how the 12 yo is incredibly mean to her siblings, particularly 7 yo who has autism (not sure how to link to previous posts)

We have been away camping this week together with my DC and some incidents make me very angry/irritated with 12 yo niece.

For example:

She knows 7 yo is extremely particular about food - she barely eats and is underweight. 12 yo has stopped 7 yo eating at least 3 meals this week - by purposely knocking her plate across the table so her food would touch, by going on at her to try her meal and putting some of it on her plate (making 7 yo sick) and by coughing all over her food

Anything I or her mum say to anyone, she will answer. For example, I'll say to my DC "Sophie, please stop messing with the tent zips" and DN will say "I'm not messing with them!" even though their names sound nothing alike. She does this constantly

7 yo niece loves my dogs but every time they go near her, 12 yo calls them away so she can't stroke them

We went to some arcades and 12 yo won something she has zero interest in but that she knows 7 yo would adore. 7 yo never asks for anything and told her how lucky she was to win it. 12 yo made a big show of how she didn't want it so was going to give it away, making 7 yo think it would be to her...then gave it to a stranger and smiled smugly straight at 7 yo as she did so

Whenever 7 yo is sitting with or chatting to her mum, 12 yo will call her away then jump in her spot. 12 yo even races to get next to her mum before 2yo then gloats that she has Mummys hand

She corrects or argues with everyone constantly. My DC remarked it was a full moon and she insisted it was only 3/4 despite it clearly being fucking full! She asked where her bag was and I said on her sleeping bag, she kept saying no it isn't- I'm looking and it definitely isn't. It was very slightly off the sleeping bag but she could clearly see it, she just had to argue!

She is constantly after food, drinks and wanting to be bought stuff. She sulks and spoils it if anyone else gets a say in what they want to do and her mood brings everyone down.

I'm taking my DC camping in the summer and was going to offer to take my nieces too to give my sister a break but I really don't want to take 12 yo. I think her sisters would flourish with some time away from her, and that she needs to learn at some point that her behaviour is intolerable and that people won't want to spend time with her if she behaves in this way. However, taking her sisters away is rewarding her in a way as she then gets her mum's full attention.

What do you think? Am I unreasonable to say I don't want to take her?

You obviously want to punish the 12 year old because you don’t think that your sister is parenting well. Of course you aren’t obligated to take the 12 year old but you stepping in in this way is undermining your sister’s authority and in bound to cause issues. I can’t see any long term good coming from it. You should talk to your sister and make a mutual plan with her.

I don’t think it’s wrong to exclude her, although I’d approach it as she should have time with her mother, as pp have suggested.

How far from home is the camping?

You could take her but warn all that the first time they misbehave, that child goes home. Then take her home when she does misbehave.

Wouldn’t a gentle chat with your sister be better?

I've read both threads and actually feel really sorry for the 12yo, she's obviously lacking attention and jealous. Op maybe you should adjust your attitude slightly and view it as a positive thing to leave the elder with her mum for some special time. You sound like you really dislike her

My two children have just gone through an autism and ADHD assessment process. As part of this we were asked if they had some of those behaviours your DN12 seems to have. My children were not diagnosed as having either autism or ADHD but my daughter's working memory was a lot lower than her English abilities which they said can result in some autistic traits - since her working memory part of her brain was not fully developed this then indicated parts of her social and emotional skills might not be either hence the appearance of autistic traits without actually being autistic. This sort of brain development can run in families. Basically, I am wondering if DN7 is autistic whether DN12 actually has some undiagnosed autistic or ADHD traits. My daughter is also 12 and showed absolutely no signs of any autistic traits until she was 10. The specialist said that children's brains developed a lot during puberty and this is why children's behaviour can be quite dramatic at this time.
Your niece is going through a huge mental and physical change with puberty. Her behaviour sounds appauling and I would encourage her mum o go the doctor to be asked to be referred to CAHMS for assessment and perhaps family therapy. But DN12 is a kid - and I also agree with others she would benefit from some alone time with her mum. She does more nurturing.

Very much agree with archive and Mitzi every post of yours is filled with contempt and loathing for 12yo, and you have completely discounted any possibility that she may also have any needs, l think it would be wrong and dangerous for you to be the sole adult in any situation with this child given the negativity you see in any interaction. How could there possibly be a good outcome for anyone?

The adults in this situation should be absolutely ashamed of themselves.

Reading the OP's other thread her own children also mirror her sisters - she also has 3 DDs with big age gaps, she thinks the middle one has PDA, which is a form of autism, she resents her eldest child for "undermining" her with her 5 and 2 year olds...

The OP is a lone parent so is proposing to take 5 children, including two 2 year olds, an autistic 7 year old and a 5 year old with suspected pathological demand avoidance whom the OP says she struggles to cope with, and her own 10 year old who tries to help (which the OP resents) camping as sole adult in order to teach a 12 year old a lesson about being unwanted and disliked.

I dont agree.
The fact that the 12yo might also have some SN doesn’t mean it’s ok for her to be bullying anyone else, let alone another child with SN.
The issue here is clearly with the parents who haven’t been able o implement boundaries, protect ALL their children and give them the attention they ALL need.

FWIW I know a child who is like this. Attention seeking, annoying etc etc. No SN at all but actually a really intelligent child that has been fucked up by their familial environnement. The consequence is that most children are avoiding her :( She is a similar age too and the reality is that, as she is getting older, she is being made fully responsible of the way she acts rather than acknowledging the fact her parents have a lot to do with it.. I suspect etc the same is happening here. As the 12yo is moving from being a child to a teenager, she is being held responsible of the way she acts more and more, with less leeway than she had as a child

OP I would take the younger two. See how it goes and how easy or ‘hard work’ it is to deal with both of them (because let’s be honest, I’m pretty sure that dealing with the 7yo isn’t easy either.... SN or not).
I suspect it will do a lot of good to the y Ingest siblings, the oldest one and the mum be separated for a week. Do you think the mum could use that opportunity for some 1-1 with the 12yo?

archive if that is the situation (lone parent w 3 , one of which might also be in the spectrum), then taking another two dcs with her sounds a crazy idea! Along the lines of taking more than yoU can chew.

I don’t think that putting yourself (and the dcs) in a difficult position just to teach the other child a lesson would be wise. It wouodnt be wise either if it was about giving the mum a break or allowing them to get some 1-1 time either.

MadAboutWands If the OP's sister allows her to take two 2 year olds, a 5 year old with PDA and an autistic 7 year old and a long suffering confused 10 year old camping as sole adult she's clearly got enormous cognitive problems or is desperate enough to put her children in a high risk situation...

Often strong feelings stem from something from our past so perhaps the OP was brought up with a golden child or was bullied so feels more strongly about the situation than others.The 12 year old does seem to be deliberately winding the OP up, very aggravating but Op should be prepared for it and ignore.
My eldest DS always felt he was less favoured than his younger siblings. I've no idea why and he was slightly favoured in my attempts to correct his belief.
I wonder if the older child is embarrassed by the behaviour of the 7 year old. Doesn't want to be seen with them. And a 5 year gap is quite long. And could be jealous that she gets less attention than her sibling. 1:1 time with her mother sounds a great idea.
I would think the 12 year old will reduce her teasing when she gets older and spends more time with her teenage friends and has less family time.

I agree with the more moderate voices. Your dn is 12. She’s still very very much a child. Not even reached her teens. The prefrontal cortex - which amongst other things determines personality - is only half formed by the time a person reaches 18. There is so much that can be done with and for this child. Something is going terribly wrong.

What would I do? Talking to your sister would be my priority. In an non judgmental way. Perhaps your sister / her partner do speak to your dn behind closed doors and you really don’t have a clue what’s going on because you have such an aversion to a little girl. So talk to your sister from a place of concern for her 12 yo and the dynamic between her and the other children. Not judgment. Then come up with a plan together, which takes the needs of all the children including yours into account. Either you take her 12 yo or you take the younger 2. And if you can’t talk to your sister, talk to her partner.

I am going to read your other thread. However right now my reaction is one of anger against you op. You really aren’t showing yourself in a nice light. And tbh your attitude to this child is part of the problem. Don’t you realise your 12 yo dn is picking up on how you feel? Your presence is making this so much worse. Poor child.

And yes, encourage your sister to get your dn assessed as a priority.

My sister has three children, but it is her youngest who has autism. Her middle child really struggles because she is often asked to be grown up because of her younger sibling and often what she would like to do is compromised by her younger siblings difficulties.
She is pulled up on her behaviour, but she also needs time away from her younger sibling to be a normal teen. As a family how do we achieve this? My parents often have the younger sibling overnight to give my sisters family a break. The middle child in long school holidays will come and stay with me for a whole week as my DD is the same age.
Yes she needs to reminded her behaviour is not on, but she also needs understanding. It sounds a little like your sister is worn out with everything.

archive
I didn’t read your post before writing mine. Gosh that sounds even more awful. God only knows how to save these older girls.

I'm totally with Ewitsahuman here. You shouldn't take her because you clearly dislike her and she'll have a horrible time with you.
She's 12, a child. It's really bloody hard being the sibling of a child with SN. It's also just hard being 12 generally. You are expecting a degree of kindness and empathy from a child that you are unwilling or unable to demonstrate yourself, and it sure as hell isn't your place to teach someone elses child a lesson.

I grew up with a SN sibling and was horribly under stimulated. It didn’t help that I was an exceptionally bright child.
(DM was even approached by my primary school and asked to put me forward for a full scholarship at the nearby private school - but felt that would be too much hassle for them to deal with at the time and unfair to my sibling (who struggled academically)🙄)

I’m not condoning all of the bahaviour you describe, but do you actually have any idea what it’s like to grow up knowing that you’re the least important child op? Having meals and activities dictated to by a sibling? Being constantly reminded that they’re ‘special’ whilst you’re completely bloody ‘ordinary’ and should be ‘grateful’ for that?

My behaviour used to SUCK and 9/10 times it was because I was being held back and made to work at 40% capacity to equal that of my sibling! As an adult I can see why my parents did it- but I still don’t think it was right.

I feel quite sorry got the 12 YO, as I’m sure many thought I was painful at the same age, maybe she’s putting all her undirected and misplaced energy/potential into the wrong places, like arguing!

I disagree about this being a 12 year old’s cry for attention, this is a bully who is taking relish at hurting her disabled sister continuously with the implicit approval of her mum. She is getting away with this because her mum is enabling her by not protecting the victim. I bet she gets the lion’s share of the mother’s attention already and is acting even worse than normally in front of you because you are trying to protect (or in her eyes “favour) a sibling she considers below herself. Queen bee behaviour all the way.

I would probably concentrate on taking 7 year old on her own, and do things with her without the other 2, because if you make a point of excluding the bully, she is not going to take it out on you, she will take it out on the 7 year old.

At 12, she is not a toddler misbehaving for attention, she is a young adolescent who has been allowed to bully a sibling freely.

It sounds like she desperately needs a dose of her mum's full attention. She has one sibling with SN, another sibling who is at a particularly demanding age, and she herself is coming up to a fairly major stage of her development and it becomes quite clear that she quite probably has some emotional needs that aren't being met.

This.

She sounds very unhappy and this behaviour probably comes from feeling very low down in the pecking order of the family. If she didn't act up would she get any attention at all?

@Ewitsahooman
You seem lovely😕

The 12 year old sounds very unhappy. She has issues of her own which are very likely having to take a back seat to her sister. Having read the other thread the 12 year old sounds disturbed by her sister's disability and the effect it's having on her family. She's not handling it well. It may seem very threatening to her. Maybe she's afraid of finding that she has autism or some other disability too (and that is quite possible, I've met a few sibs whose families are sure they are NT because on the surface they appear very different and much more "normal" compared to the diagnosed sib, but later on they get diagnosed too), maybe she's afraid of losing her mother's attention, etc. It's nobody's fault but some of her your oldest niece's needs aren't being met and that's affecting her.

taking her sisters away is rewarding her in a way as she then gets her mum's full attention.

That's quite likely. And if so it's very sad that's the best way she has to get it.

What do you think? Am I unreasonable to say I don't want to take her?

Well, it's reasonable to not want to take her with her the other girls. But if you can, take her by herself another time as well. Give her the individual attention she craves. Does she behave nicely when she's away from her sisters? Give her that opportunity and give them all that respite. And taking her sisters away while leaving her to enjoy some calm one-to-one time with her Mum sounds like a great way to help all of them.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for you to dislike your DN, given her behaviour, and I certainly would not be taking her anywhere. However it doesn't sound as if you are especially well placed to take her siblings away either, and your DSis may well be offended by the offer, so I would just support her as best you can in other ways.

I wouldn't take her. She needs to learn actions have consequences.

Looks like it's typical MN where a bully will receive more sympathy than their victim.

I don't think it's about sympathy, more a recognition that most children who bully do so because of their own issues or some kind of unmet need.

In such cases, exclusion and punishment make things worse, not better. Working on the cause of the bullying is much more effective.

Op I read your last thread but didn't post at the time.
I come at this from a different perspective 1 of my cousins was like this 12 year old. She bullied all of us mercilessly her siblings the worst, culminating in her being removed by ss to protect her younger siblings after purposely braking her younger brother arm.
Before anyone tries to defend her she had years of therapy of every kind and all the love and support she could ever need or want.
The last time I heard anything about her she was in jail for slashing a womans face because she looked at her bf the wrong way.
I don't have any advice other than please protect the other kids from her