To leave one niece out?

[HipHipHippoo]

My sister has 3 DDs aged 12, 7 and 2. I have posted before about how the 12 yo is incredibly mean to her siblings, particularly 7 yo who has autism (not sure how to link to previous posts)

We have been away camping this week together with my DC and some incidents make me very angry/irritated with 12 yo niece.

For example:

She knows 7 yo is extremely particular about food - she barely eats and is underweight. 12 yo has stopped 7 yo eating at least 3 meals this week - by purposely knocking her plate across the table so her food would touch, by going on at her to try her meal and putting some of it on her plate (making 7 yo sick) and by coughing all over her food

Anything I or her mum say to anyone, she will answer. For example, I'll say to my DC "Sophie, please stop messing with the tent zips" and DN will say "I'm not messing with them!" even though their names sound nothing alike. She does this constantly

7 yo niece loves my dogs but every time they go near her, 12 yo calls them away so she can't stroke them

We went to some arcades and 12 yo won something she has zero interest in but that she knows 7 yo would adore. 7 yo never asks for anything and told her how lucky she was to win it. 12 yo made a big show of how she didn't want it so was going to give it away, making 7 yo think it would be to her...then gave it to a stranger and smiled smugly straight at 7 yo as she did so

Whenever 7 yo is sitting with or chatting to her mum, 12 yo will call her away then jump in her spot. 12 yo even races to get next to her mum before 2yo then gloats that she has Mummys hand

She corrects or argues with everyone constantly. My DC remarked it was a full moon and she insisted it was only 3/4 despite it clearly being fucking full! She asked where her bag was and I said on her sleeping bag, she kept saying no it isn't- I'm looking and it definitely isn't. It was very slightly off the sleeping bag but she could clearly see it, she just had to argue!

She is constantly after food, drinks and wanting to be bought stuff. She sulks and spoils it if anyone else gets a say in what they want to do and her mood brings everyone down.

I'm taking my DC camping in the summer and was going to offer to take my nieces too to give my sister a break but I really don't want to take 12 yo. I think her sisters would flourish with some time away from her, and that she needs to learn at some point that her behaviour is intolerable and that people won't want to spend time with her if she behaves in this way. However, taking her sisters away is rewarding her in a way as she then gets her mum's full attention.

What do you think? Am I unreasonable to say I don't want to take her?

[FifisLovelyApron]

I think you should offer the younger girls as much support as possible. I was a younger sibling in a similar situation and it was hell having a bully in my own family.

But honestly it is best to frame your approach as other said above. If the parents favour the eldest child, it's better to play on that and the you can focus on giving the kids a nice getaway and some peace.

[LillithsFamiliar]

I think you underestimate how difficult this all must be for the 12-yr-old and you're attributing a lot of malice to actions that could be normal sibling rivalry. Do you spend as much effort looking for positives in her behaviour as you spend noting the negatives?
She probably would benefit from one-to-one time with her mum but not with the proviso that you get to be a bitch to her. She isn't your child and if you struggle so much to spend time with her perhaps you should scale back your involvement with your DSIS' family.

[Ewitsahooman]

And how would you feel if your sister was talking this way about your 5yo?

Try being supportive rather than negative.

[OwnerOfThatChocolateBar]

I would take the younger two and make a point to the 12 yo that she isn't invited because she can't behave and that it's a treat the other two are getting for their good behaviour and she's not being left home for some quality time with her mother as a reward.
Little shits like this need to learn manners and how to behave like a decent human and at 12 she should at least know the basics

[mummmy2017]

Ok read another of your threads ..
Your 12 year old niece can't help it .
Horrible as this is too you, there is nothing you can do to stop this, no pills or potions will help, your niece has no empathy, so nothing you can do will stop her..
She has a cruel streak, that means she thinks something as does it.
She will cause pain, upset to her sisters because something belongs to her so they can't have it . She will be Jealous if things she sees. So fine with friends, copies their social leads, but the second she comes home her sister are trespassing on her space, even having contact with mummy, who belongs to her, so she will punish them

[LillithsFamiliar]

The irony of calling a 12-yr-old a little shit but saying they need to learn how to behave like a decent human being
Well, OP, if you want to potentially rupture the relationship with your sister but gain the support of adults who call children shits, then go ahead with your plan.

[dangerrabbit]

Yeah, my uncle and aunt used to do that to me.

[Orangeballon]

Would it not be better to focus on your own child and leave your sister to manage her own family?

[mummmy2017]

And yes she will be upset, for the two seconds you tell her off , but in her head not her fault, hence the sleeping bag and items .. your fault as technically it was not on.. but by.
Oh and the second she turns round , the telling off is gone from her head.


My. Eldest was like this ..now at uni,. She admits it ,can see it, but says nothing I did would ever have stopped it. Yes I was strick and fair....

[OwlBeThere]

shes clearly desperate for attention. shes literally screaming out for someone to notice her and when you are a child that doesn't feel loved as much as those around you, any attention is better than none.
i was that child. different situation, but i had an older brother who my dad clearly chose to spend time with over me. a mum who was preoccupied with a new baby, my stepmum the same and my stepdad who didn't care i was alive. so, when being intensely good all the time didnt work, i then tried being annoying. limited success.
then, i was really unwell after getting my tonsils out and i finally had tons of one to one time with my mum, my dad chose to come and see me, not take my brother to rugby and even my stepdad asked if i was ok. and that was when te lightbulb went off, so after that i would pretend to be ill. i would deliberately throw myself down flights of stairs. one time i pulled a massive brick off a wall onto myself.
so, anyway, my point is. a child like that is craving being the centre of someones world. does it make it any less annnoying? no. but i think taking her siblings away and giving her some time alone with her mum sounds an excellent idea!

[BlackCatSleeping]

I agree that it would probably be better for you to offer to take the 12 y o sometimes and give them a break from each other. She does sound desperate for attention and jealous of her sister. You will probably find that she’s a lot nicer away from her family dynamic.

[archivearmadillo]

I've just read the other thread - the OP clearly absolutely loathes, detests and despises the 12 year old and adores the 7 year old who 8s bright, talented, sweet, adorable, hard working and also a heartbreaking little waif.

The op sounds pretty unpleasant herself to have such loathing for a child. There's no way on earth the 12 year old doesn't know that her heavily over involved aunt absolutely detests her and adores her sister.

It also sounds as though the older child may also be autistic.

Either way the OP's sister would be a fool to let someone as nasty as the op have any more contact with her 12 year old, or take any of the children away camping.

[TheFormidableMrsC]

Hi OP, giving a perspective as an ASD parent here...12 yo sounds awful, I agree, but I can absolutely imagine how her life is with her sister. She seems resentful and angry and I get that. I went through something fairly similar with my own kids, there is a 13 year age gap...and during the difficult teen times, my DD was a nightmare..she just used to dismiss her ASD brother's issues as "being a brat" and on one occasion hit him because as far as she was concerned he "needed discipline" and I "wasn't doing it". That only happened once, I put her firmly in her place with that one. However, she did always respond well to one to one with me...spending a bit of time together, not having her brother and his issues interrupting everything. I wonder if maybe your niece would benefit from some time like that with her mum? In which case you need to handle this differently....so that it's not a punishment, but a break for everybody else...and her. She's 12, her hormones will be off the scale too. I also wonder about SEN given how you describe her behaviour at times. I think you need to handle this really carefully. FWIW, my DD is now my best co-parent at 21, she's grown up, understands, is brilliant with her brother. It's a difficult period but it will adjust eventually.

[ilikebeckerinmyoldage]

Reward her with her mums full attention?! Wtf. She's a kid. Of course she's entitled to her mum's full attention. She does the things she does for attention, any attention is attention even if it's negative. She has two younger siblings and one with SEN - how much one on one time do you think she gets?

Her parents need to put a stop to her bullying her younger sister, but they also need to help her - she's a kid and clearly troubled.

[TheFormidableMrsC]

@archivearmadillo Well that puts a different spin on things!

[rose789]

How will you manage with 5 children camping, even without your oldest niece?
Your dd has possible PDA, your 7 yo niece is autistic. Add a 2 year old and 2 other children into the mix I can’t imagine it would be a relaxing holiday.

[LagunaBubbles]

Looks like it's typical MN where a bully will receive more sympathy than their victim.

[Takethebuscuitandthesink]

In all honesty I think it isn’t really your place I think you may be overstepping the mark a little. Many of the “incidents” in question seem incredibly minor and for you to present it in the way you did suggests to me that you are desperate to have something bad to say about her. Having read one of your past threads I do feel sorry for the 7yo but I would question how you know all this- you seem way over invested. It is not unreasonable to not want to take her camping as clearly you don’t get on and this would spoil your enjoyment but I would tread carefully as you could cause a rift with your sister. Next time you see this happening remember it is not your issue and unless someone is in risk of being injured you should stay well out and just leave it to the parents.

[MitziTheTabbyIsMyOverlord]

I remember your other thread, but can't remember if I posted on it or not (new UN, so it wouldn't show).

I don't like posting on a thread where I'm just agreeing with PPs, but this thread is a bit split, so here's my views:

I understand why you have issues with the 12 yr old (I have a DNeice who is incredibly full on, and indulged by her parents. While her older brother, who is a sweetie, is generally ignored in favour of his much 'louder' sister).

What I'd say is that while the 12 yr old probably seems very old in the context of your family, she's actually still REALLY young. She IS still a baby (and her behaviour re-inforces this). She really does have the same needs her younger/sweeter siblings do. But the 'curse' of the oldest child is that you're just expected to step up. And things that are forgiven in the younger ones (because "they're only young") are not forgiven in you. (I am an older child, so I do really get this).

I'm not excusing the behaviour, but I AM saying all behaviour is for a reason; and this reason is clear to a lot of PPs.

You seem to want the 12 yr old to be 'punished' That's not very nice of you. And, btw, punishments generally don't work. Kindness works much better.
What do you ACTUALLY want? Something punitive for someone you have issues with vs changes in behaviour?
If you WANT the 12 yr old to be punished, then set up scenarios where this will be more likely to happen.
IF what you actually want is for the situation to change, think creatively about how the behaviour of adults might bring about this change. And it MIGHT be about the 12 yr old having some 1:1 time with mum. NOT as a punishment, but as a lovely thing for them both.

I really, REALLY suggest this is sorted before she's at an age/stage where sex, alcohol, drugs (etc) come into the equation. ESP as her parents are (understandably) busy with the younger ones. This isn't something where everyone should just cross their fingers and hope for the best because they're distracted by the younger kids.

[brizzlemint]

It sounds like she needs some loving attention herself. Children who are behaving badly are often doing it to get attention as negative attention is better than no attention. Why not take her out for a day or camping for a weekend and keep it relaxed and low key, she might open up and talk to you which might be just what she needs.
Do try not to judge her, I know her behaviour is appalling but there will be a reason for it and she is still a 12 year old child.

[MovingThisYearDefinitely]

Not read the whole thread, but speaking as someone with a dx of ADHD myself & 2 DD dx ASD who are completely different & present together in a similar way to these 2 girls I would be getting the 12 year old assessed asap. It took my 19 year old until she was 18 to get dx because she presented acceptably at school, yet at home she was a bitch. We now realise it was due to severe anxiety & starting Sertraline was a life changer for her. Sadly too late to save her relationship with her sister, who hasn't spoken to her in over a year, which is heartbreaking for me!

[jesusishot]

Don't try to present not taking the 12-year-old as some kind of retribution for her behaviour; it will only antagonise her (and probably her parents) and won't improve the way she treats her sister. If anything, it'll make things worse. Just say you can't cope with all of them and think it would be nice for the eldest to get some respite from the younger ones.

[butterflywings37]

Having read your other thread, I think taking the other siblings without her is fine. Her behaviour is very unkind and she seems to have significant issues with her sinking having autism but revels in tormenting her. I'm surprised some people on here think it is ok to pick on, bulky and torment someone because of their disability ( shouting down her ears, taking her bag of counting objects/taking some out and laughing etc is cruel and targeting something sensitive/needed as a result of their disability)

12 years old is not a baby - 12 years old know right from wrong and if any of my own children did the behaviours you've described to their disabled sibling I'd come down on them like a ton of beings. Sibling bickering is one thing but some of the things she's doing are very nasty.

[justilou1]

I think you can suggest it to her parents, but don't be surprised if you are told that it's an all for one, or none at all situation.

[Takethebuscuitandthesink]

@MitziTheTabbyIsMyOverlord

Sorry but I have to disagree. A 12 year old is not a “baby” and certain behaviours are obviously not on there is a huge developmental difference between a 12 year old and a 7 year old and then a 2 year old. Also age 12 you are old enough (assuming no SEN) to make certain sacrifices and allowances for the collective good of the family/group that a 7 year old simply can’t be expected to make. 12 is plenty old enough to take responsibility and although my previous point still stands some of the behaviour this 12 year old has exhibited are downright nasty. Age 12 according to a court is old enough to take responsibility for your actions wear-as age 7 is not old enough to take responsibility according to the law.