To leave one niece out?

[HipHipHippoo]

My sister has 3 DDs aged 12, 7 and 2. I have posted before about how the 12 yo is incredibly mean to her siblings, particularly 7 yo who has autism (not sure how to link to previous posts)

We have been away camping this week together with my DC and some incidents make me very angry/irritated with 12 yo niece.

For example:

She knows 7 yo is extremely particular about food - she barely eats and is underweight. 12 yo has stopped 7 yo eating at least 3 meals this week - by purposely knocking her plate across the table so her food would touch, by going on at her to try her meal and putting some of it on her plate (making 7 yo sick) and by coughing all over her food

Anything I or her mum say to anyone, she will answer. For example, I'll say to my DC "Sophie, please stop messing with the tent zips" and DN will say "I'm not messing with them!" even though their names sound nothing alike. She does this constantly

7 yo niece loves my dogs but every time they go near her, 12 yo calls them away so she can't stroke them

We went to some arcades and 12 yo won something she has zero interest in but that she knows 7 yo would adore. 7 yo never asks for anything and told her how lucky she was to win it. 12 yo made a big show of how she didn't want it so was going to give it away, making 7 yo think it would be to her...then gave it to a stranger and smiled smugly straight at 7 yo as she did so

Whenever 7 yo is sitting with or chatting to her mum, 12 yo will call her away then jump in her spot. 12 yo even races to get next to her mum before 2yo then gloats that she has Mummys hand

She corrects or argues with everyone constantly. My DC remarked it was a full moon and she insisted it was only 3/4 despite it clearly being fucking full! She asked where her bag was and I said on her sleeping bag, she kept saying no it isn't- I'm looking and it definitely isn't. It was very slightly off the sleeping bag but she could clearly see it, she just had to argue!

She is constantly after food, drinks and wanting to be bought stuff. She sulks and spoils it if anyone else gets a say in what they want to do and her mood brings everyone down.

I'm taking my DC camping in the summer and was going to offer to take my nieces too to give my sister a break but I really don't want to take 12 yo. I think her sisters would flourish with some time away from her, and that she needs to learn at some point that her behaviour is intolerable and that people won't want to spend time with her if she behaves in this way. However, taking her sisters away is rewarding her in a way as she then gets her mum's full attention.

What do you think? Am I unreasonable to say I don't want to take her?

[Ewitsahooman]

Even with attention there can still be unmet emotional needs or, as PP have suggested, undiagnosed neurodevelopment issues.

If you don't like how your sister is parenting and you (clearly) don't like your niece then you should start distancing yourself from them and spending less time together. It's not up to you to punish this child or to make her feel bad for her behaviour, you're not her mother, and at the moment you sound massively overinvested in her actions and this cycle of negativity towards her.

[Someoneonlyyouknow]

I'm not sure how old your DC are, how does your niece behave towards them? Your sister's children are each at different stages in life, probably each would benefit from individual attention. The oldest should know better but also sounds troubled. If she behaved nicely to her sister she is maybe worried that she would be overlooked, or has been like this for so long that she can't imagine behaving any other way.
It sounds very irritating that she constantly insists black is white etc, if you just ignore this and don't bother to repeat what you first said does she give up or escalate?
I think your plan to take the younger two away sounds good, if your sister agrees. She might not be willing if you insist it is presented as a punishment though. If it helps the 7yr old isn't that the most important thing? Also, if you insist on explaining that she is being left behind because of her behaviour but she feels rewarded by getting 1:1 with her mum then you are reinforcing the behaviour that you want to discourage.
It's lovely that you want to support the 7yr old and it must be difficult to see her being bullied and upset.

[blubblubblub]

OP it's not your job to discipline your DN in this manner. By all means, discipline if actions at the time warrant it and involve your DC (as with the slide incident), but to invite 2 away for a trip and not the 3 to make a point is childish. Speak with your DSis. If she doesn't have a problem with eldest DNs behaviour you're going to cause an almighty rift in the family by inviting 2 DNs and not the other, especially if you explain your reasoning as you have here.

If DSis does realise that the behaviour isn't Ok, then maybe you can work with her to help resolve it. Maybe one on one time with her Mum is what DN needs, or maybe leaving her out will make her behave worse towards her siblings when they return. Either way, it's not your call to make.

[wittyusermane]

She constantly tells others they're wrong and stupid and that she's amazing. - classic sign of low self esteem in a child.

I think the more reasoned responses on this thread are falling on deaf ears because you already have an intense dislike of this girl and seem determined that her behaviour fit with your 'she's an inherently awful person' narrative.

She's just a kid, and it sounds to me as though she needs some help, rather than simply being written off as a spiteful monster.

If you are unable to get past your utter contempt for your niece perhaps it is worth considering whether it would be better for you and for them if you took big step back from your sister's family. Certainly if I was your sister and knew the extent of your ill feeling I would be distancing myself.

[Lweji]

Going out once a week and month sounds more like token attention.

The youngest don't need to seek attention to get important attention from the parents.

Does she get the right type of positive attention? Or has she got into a pattern of only getting negative attention?

It looks like some professional help might be required if the parents can't distance themselves and tackle her behaviour.
Maybe you can look at books about attention seeking and start putting some strategies in place and discuss them with the parents. Be honest with them about how you see her behaviour from the outside.

[Fruityfruitcake]

I'm sorry but she's 12 so should know so much better. She sounds horrible and I would absolutely take the other 2 away for a break from her. Appalling, bullying before should not be rewarded.

[LaurieMarlow]

She sounds really troubled.

If you positioned it as ‘I’m giving her some alone time with mummy’, I think that’s fine. But not taking her as a punishment is just cruel. It’s not your job to discipline her about sounds like she needs love and attention more than anything.

[Lweji]

At 12 she should if she has been given a proper education.
It looks as if she is pushing the barriers and not meeting any from her parents.
Children need clear boundaries.

But, people can have irrational behaviour and even behaviour they're not happy with in the wrong environments.
Punishment alone may not be enough. That's the kind of response that encourages negative attention seeking.
She needs both positive attention (not sure she's getting any) and firm boundaries.

[Clutterbugsmum]

It's moot point as to whether the older child has any additional needs, the fact is her parents are not getting her treatment or to get her to behave and there fore the 12 year old is nasty little mean girl.

OP I would take your 7 niece as much as possible and yes I would take her on holiday with you. And I if the 12 yr old demands to come I would tell her that due to her nasty bullying behaviour I will not be taking her on holiday.

She 12 not 2 she is old enough to understand that it is her OWN behaviour is not right, and until her parent start actually parenting her then it's never going to change.

As some one said earlier that once again the MN jury is defending the bully and not the victim.

[HipHipHippoo]

Any positive behaviour is given tons of praise, but there really is very very little.

[Ewitsahooman]

As some one said earlier that once again the MN jury is defending the bully and not the victim.

She's a 12yo child and with children behaviour is communication. If she's behaving in a bullying way it's for a reason, not because she's evil or nasty. It's up to the parents to find out the reason and improve things, it's not up to the OP to organise a trip for the other two with the purpose of using it to prove a point to the 12yo.

[Takethebuscuitandthesink]

In all honesty having read your posting history and many updates it just sounds like you are always looking to have bad things to say about her. You argued with her about the moon for god sake. I have read your posting history and it seems you have some kind of odd grudge against older children trying to help. All of this stuff seems very minor and again I can’t stress enough that I do feel sorry for the 7 year old you need to take a massive step back. These are not your children and if you are taking one of your sisters kids on holiday then you have to take them all really.

[user1498581287]

I wouldn't take the other two away without her. Even though children are sometimes badly behaved and unfair, they expect the adult world to be fair, and when it isn't it feels unjust to them.
The writer Noel Streatfield wrote a fantastic autobiographical book about her childhood-The Vicarage Family-you might find it helpful to read to see things from your older neice's perspective.
Noel was the 'difficult' middle daughter, of a vicar, she had a beautiful delicate looking younger sister, an asthmatic, artistic well behaved older sister- and she was the 'plain' awkward one in the middle . (got expelled from school at one point! ) . At one point in the book , she describes how her aunt and uncle came, intending to take the eldest girl out for tea( as she was their god daughter) , at the last minute took the little one out too , because she had fainted. Noel wrote all the sisters were shocked-leaving people out was unheard of. She spent the afternoon up a tree, crying, thinking 'I will never forget, how it felt , when I was 12 and people were mean' . Admitatly she wasn't left out for bad behavior then, but she did misbehave and was aware of sometimes unfair levels of disapproval in the family-she was hurt her parents didn't intervine, anyway, I suppose if you leave your niece out, she might be so hurt she goes on to be a writer , and eventually comes up with a book like 'ballet shoes', -so that's nice for society! -is bit tough on your niece in the mean time.


Few other things- (from your previous post on subject) if, when I was a child, my aunty had hissed at me that my behaviour was dispicable-I would have looked shocked-not because I had been jolted into awarness of how auful my behavior was-but because I would think my aunty was possibly in the process of genuinely 'going mad' and was a nasty peice of work who maybe hated me. The reason I would have thought that-is the word 'dispicable' is too strong for an adult to use to a child, -it's too personal it speaks too much of out of control emotional dislike-not disipline. (you would never, would you, expect a secondary teacher in school to tell a child they being 'dispicable')

In this post- it sounds horrible giving a toy away- but maybe she would have secretly liked to keep it? if, as soon as she won it, the younger child was saying 'oh I love xyz!' the older girl knew she would be pressured into handing it over-I can imagine that feeling annoying and unfair. (you might say she doesn't like xyz- but honestly-you cant be sure of that-if there's one thing 12 year olds are good at it's keeping their actual feelings to themselves-particularly if they might seem babyish or stupid. )

It does bother me, on behalf of your neice that you don't seem to see her as a child, or as having any potential to eventually turn out ok -she is too young for this to be true. I wonder, as well, if she is naughtier when you are around because you are sitting watching her, waiting for her to be naughty, like waiting for a bomb to go off, so you can huff about in the background saying 'oh, sister-look what she's done now!'- honestly- what self respecting near teenager wouldn't be horrible, under those circustances?

I know it must be difficult and I know it can be hard watching a sibling parenting, if they're not doing things quite how you would, and of course you are protective about a younger child with problems-but I do think you need to try and find some kindness-or fairness at least, for your oldest neice. I know you don't love how she behaves , but you do love her, don't you? maybe try and remember her being sweet when she was a baby and remember she is still the same person some where in there. 12 is too young to write off and it feel a bit as if you have, honestly.

[user1498581287]

posting again because I reread my post and felt it sounded more harsh than I meant it to, I'm sure you do want the best for all your neices and it must be difficult. I was trying to be helpful, not mean!

Anyway, I hope the situation improves for all concered :)

[TriciaH87]

I think she craves attention and because one sibling has autism and the other is a toddler she's forgotten about. The only way she knows to get the attention is to act out. Why not take her out on her own for an afternoon to see how she is then. As a mum to a 9 year old with autism and a 12 year old without who was always my better behaved child I have noticed that he will tell younger sibling off a lot or have out bursts at times when my focus has been on his sibling. My 9 year old only eats 9 foods including his sweets biscuits n crisp and his brother often trys to make him eat other foods getting frustrated if he does not or if he spits them out. Maybe she could use a one on one afternoon with her aunt and then after that you could take your nieces for an afternoon giving her time on her own with mum. See if she's different in these situations. You may find she opens up about why she acts this way and how she is feeling.

[Kaleela]

The collective attitude that more effort should be put into the 12yo cause clearly she needs it is an absolute joke. Don't take the 12yo, treat the other kids who are clearly being bullied and neglected as a result of this childs behaviour and tell her mother to deal with her seeing as though she seems quite happy to.

My whole life I was put on a back bench because of a cousin exactly like your DN FOR 15 YEARS! It has resulted in ALL of us eventually going no contact when her attention seeking "I'm better than you" behavior became unforgivable. I had absolutely no sympathy for any of my family when it all came to a head because they stupidly allowed her to take advantage at the detriment to themselves and to us other kids.

12 year olds aren't stupid. She needs professional help and a plan set in place for her to learn that this behavior is not healthy nor is it normal.

[VanGoghsDog]

I think you should take just the 12yo, give her some quality aunt time and try to understand why she is so troubled.

Your sister could probably do with the break too and focus on the tot and the child with special needs for a few days.

You'd probably find the 12yo would behave differently on her own.

[HomeMadeMadness]

If you are unable to get past your utter contempt for your niece perhaps it is worth considering whether it would be better for you and for them if you took big step back from your sister's family.

I tend to agree with this. Your niece has almost definitely picked up on your feelings and it probably makes her behaviour even worse towards her sister. This won't help the 12 year old (who is still a child herself) or her younger siblings. It's just making the (already bad) dynamic worse.

[Lizzie48]

If you are unable to get past your utter contempt for your niece perhaps it is worth considering whether it would be better for you and for them if you took big step back from your sister's family.

Sorry, but I agree with this. You’re definitely not helping your DSis and you’re potentially causing a lot of harm to all your nieces by openly favouring the younger two and with your obvious contempt for the oldest.

They’re not your DC.

[frogsarejumpy]

As many posters have said, this is a very biased perspective and few incidents raised, there may have been episodes of “good” behaviour that are taken for granted as “expected”. Many of these things listed (arguing, bag on sleeping bag) can be explained by being very literal. My child is aged 13, has ADHD and ASD and acts much younger at times. They would often correct those things and this was very much taken as being “difficult” or “picking an argument” by us until we learnt more about their conditions. I would urge the assessment of older child and that someone attempts to listen compassionately to her. This would hopefully lead to more long term changes in behaviour benefitting the whole family.

[frogsarejumpy]

Also, I struggle to understand the outright judgemental condemnation on here of a 12 year old girl in a difficult situation. I understand entirely the compassion for the younger children, but where is the compassion for her?

[Ewitsahooman]

I'd also recommend your sister, and you seeing as you have so much contact, read "The Explosive Child" which looks at some of the factors behind undesirable or unpleasant behaviours and how to break the patterns that create these behaviours in the first place.

[Ewitsahooman]

where is the compassion for her?

You should have seen the other thread about this where posters were calling her an evil twat. She's fucking 12, a child.

[Mummyoflittledragon]

Your niece may be getting plenty of attention. It’s clearly not the sort of attention she needs otherwise she wouldn’t be acting as she is. She’s telling her mother she’s in extreme distress using her behaviour because she does not have the words. Several posters have explained she needs assessing for possible additional needs and you’ve totally ignored them.

Whatever you say about your niece and how ever unkind you say she is to her younger siblings, the way you speak about your dn is far worse. You are an adult bullying a child. Can you not see the irony? Your entire family dynamic is unhealthy and you are part of the problem.