To leave one niece out?

[HipHipHippoo]

My sister has 3 DDs aged 12, 7 and 2. I have posted before about how the 12 yo is incredibly mean to her siblings, particularly 7 yo who has autism (not sure how to link to previous posts)

We have been away camping this week together with my DC and some incidents make me very angry/irritated with 12 yo niece.

For example:

She knows 7 yo is extremely particular about food - she barely eats and is underweight. 12 yo has stopped 7 yo eating at least 3 meals this week - by purposely knocking her plate across the table so her food would touch, by going on at her to try her meal and putting some of it on her plate (making 7 yo sick) and by coughing all over her food

Anything I or her mum say to anyone, she will answer. For example, I'll say to my DC "Sophie, please stop messing with the tent zips" and DN will say "I'm not messing with them!" even though their names sound nothing alike. She does this constantly

7 yo niece loves my dogs but every time they go near her, 12 yo calls them away so she can't stroke them

We went to some arcades and 12 yo won something she has zero interest in but that she knows 7 yo would adore. 7 yo never asks for anything and told her how lucky she was to win it. 12 yo made a big show of how she didn't want it so was going to give it away, making 7 yo think it would be to her...then gave it to a stranger and smiled smugly straight at 7 yo as she did so

Whenever 7 yo is sitting with or chatting to her mum, 12 yo will call her away then jump in her spot. 12 yo even races to get next to her mum before 2yo then gloats that she has Mummys hand

She corrects or argues with everyone constantly. My DC remarked it was a full moon and she insisted it was only 3/4 despite it clearly being fucking full! She asked where her bag was and I said on her sleeping bag, she kept saying no it isn't- I'm looking and it definitely isn't. It was very slightly off the sleeping bag but she could clearly see it, she just had to argue!

She is constantly after food, drinks and wanting to be bought stuff. She sulks and spoils it if anyone else gets a say in what they want to do and her mood brings everyone down.

I'm taking my DC camping in the summer and was going to offer to take my nieces too to give my sister a break but I really don't want to take 12 yo. I think her sisters would flourish with some time away from her, and that she needs to learn at some point that her behaviour is intolerable and that people won't want to spend time with her if she behaves in this way. However, taking her sisters away is rewarding her in a way as she then gets her mum's full attention.

What do you think? Am I unreasonable to say I don't want to take her?

[LL83]

Yanbu to take the younger ones alone.

However rather than try to punish 12 year old as mum doesn't have you tried talking to your sister? Why does she not defend 7 year old? Can she not see this behaviour? Is she so overwhelmed she doesn't have the energy? Your sister needs to teach the 12 year old how to behave and give her the attention she needs. I would be asking myself is there anyway I can support sister to do that (and one answer may be taking younger ones camping to allow her to concentrate on 12 year old)

[Mememeplease]

What happens if you pull her up on things at the time? Does your sister get mad at you?

I think she needs love bombing. Fake it till you make it. But at the same time she needs clear boundaries.

When she gave the toy away I would have said "that is really mean" and then bought the sibling another one but I'd try to give lots of other positive attention at other times including quick hugs.

[UserName31456789]

Depends how you do it. If you make a point of leaving out the 12 year old you'll make the situation worse long term. If between you and your sister you work out a way to make it seem like the 12 year old is having some special time with her mum then I think it's fine.

Obviously long term your sister needs to sort out the 12 year old's behaviour. She's obviously troubled herself and could quite possibly be on the spectrum or suffering from a MH issue. Your sister should be on it.

[UserName31456789]

I also like Mememeplease's advice about a combination of very clear boundaries and love bombing.

[Alwaysgrey]

I have three kids and two have Sen. They’re 11,10 and 8. The 10 and 8 year old has autism. The oldest sibling is very good with her 8 year old sibling because she can see how her autism affects her (8 year old is at a special school and is non verbal). She has in the past been quite mean to the 10 year purely because she can walk, talk seems like she has no issues. We’ve talked a lot. 11 year old has her own issues with fitting in and school. I won’t accept her bullying her sibling but I do make sure I talk. So many adults don’t understand how kids on the spectrum are effected and yet kids are meant to get it when they live with them. I didn’t read your other thread and it sounds like the 12 year old is being very difficult but maybe as her aunt you need to look at what the behaviour is communicating. It could be she needs help. 12 is very very young. A lot of my attention goes to my kids with Sen. I work very hard with my eldest to try not to leave her out but I’m spread thin and my younger two often need me more. I’m aware for my eldest growing up with two siblings with Sen is hard. And unfair. I’m very protective of my middle child as we are very close. But don’t forget your older niece. Because she clearly needs some help.

[alittleprivacy]

I've re-read the post and why does some of it get you so agitated? Like the moon bit? Does that really matter so much? Has it got to the stage where ANYTHING she does you will see negatively?

I'm thinking this especially because with regard to the moon, the OP is wrong. The full moon is tonight, so the niece was right to have said it wasn't full. Yet the OP, despite being wrong is driven to profanity while recounting her feeling of rightness. Sorry OP some of her behaviour sounds terrible but you are very, very clearly trying to find fault with the girl. The one description of her behaviour that we have any context on shows you to be totally in the wrong but absolutely furiously attached to your wrongness and outraged that she disagreed even though she, as it turns out, was totally right. It makes me question the context of everything else you've written about her.

[Romax]

She sounds unpleasant
And may well grow in to an unpleasant adult

But until she reaches adulthood, I reckon she deserves benefit of the doubt and leaving her out may well result in an even more unpleasant adult.


So yes I do think YABU. But wouldn’t be if we were discussing an adult

[Starlive23]

I don't think you are BU at all, it clearly would ruin it for other children going, and that's not fair. She sounds like she's playing up for attention but her parents REALLY need to address this asap!

As mean as it might make you feel OP I think you'd be doing all the other children attending a favour. Hope you have a great time and DN7 has a great experience.

[AnnieMay100]

That breaks my heart to read it’s shocking how some children behave towards their siblings. Can you offer to take just the 7 yo and spoil her rotten? I wouldn’t take 12 yo and limit contact too, she could eventually turn on your children and it’ll only get worse once the teen years start if her parents let her get away with it.

[AnnieMay100]

Also echoing what others have said she is probably left out st home and desperate for attention, but she isn’t your child to parent that’s up to her own parents to address. I think 7 yo would benefit first and foremost from some alone time away from sister.

[HoppingPavlova]

I would think it’s possible that the 12yo has additional needs but has flown under the radar if not as bad as her sister.

Another option (instead or as well as) is that she has found it pretty challenging to live in a family with a SN sibling who’s care entails a fair bit of attention. She has developed these behaviours as s means of getting attention from everyone around her, focusing the attention on her even if it is negative attention.

So I think YABU as you seem to only focus on your dislike of her behaviours not any possible reasons for the behaviours. I’m guessing if she got direct one on one attention or people employed positive strategies for dealing with her behaviour in situations where she can’t have the attention she needs then you would see a change in behaviour.

Taking the other kids camping may be good in the sense she gets a break and gets her parents and their attention to herself but it may also be she thinks all her problems will be solved if she can just get rid of her siblings. I think this is a complex case that requires professional assistance (good clinical psych) who can connect with the child and direct the parents in regards to strategies that will work in the context of their everyday life. What’s not helpful is an aunt sitting back slagging her off.

[SunshineCake]

Maybe the benefit the younger children will get from not being bullied by their sister for a week is worth your annoyance that she would be being "rewarded" with a week with her mum. She's not being rewarded, it's just a natural consequence of you wanting to take her siblings away.

[TheBlessedCheesemaker]

Sounds as if the eldest child also has autism and has been masking it/presenting it in a very different way her whole life.

[Notonthestairs]

This makes for very sad reading. It doesn't sound as if either of the girls are particularly happy or having their needs met. And your camping trip won't fix this - who ever you take. It can only be dealt with by the parents.

In any event I think it might be worth it for you to spend a bit of time with the 7 year old and the 12 year old separately - cinema and a burger for the older child? Get to know her better - I suspect out of the usual family dynamic she's quite different.

[Slazengerbag]

Op it’s not your place to punish your niece. You seem overly invested. Most of what you have said is pathetic and says more about you than the niece. You argued with a 12 year old about the moon?? As a pp has pointed out your niece was correct and you were wrong. Will you apologise to her or just add another thing she pissed you off with to the list.

It seems that she is very jealous of her siblings (running to get mums hand first). 12 year olds aren’t adults and are still very much children, from everything you have said it seems she is crying out for attention. If she’s naughty then she’s getting attention. She won’t care how she’s getting it as long as she’s getting some. Autistic children take up a lot of the parents time which is completely understandable. She needs one on one with an adult.

The way you have spoken about her is awful. I think you should step away from her completely as she doesn’t need someone who clearly hates her in her life.

[OneInEight]

I have to say it still rankles that my SIL decided to take it on herself to punish ds2 for some misdemeanour (without going into details was not a nice thing to do but in no way did it affect her) when she had no idea of the circumstances or what he was was going through at the time. It was probably done with good intentions but the end result was we barely see her anymore.

[grumiosmum]

Errmmm - full moon is today, so she was actually right about that.

[Ewitsahooman]

@Ewitsahooman You seem lovely😕

I'm fucking delightful, thanks.

[Goldmandra]

Having read your other thread, I think the 12YO has neurodevelopmental difficulties of her own. It can be quite hard to see them when you are around children who present differently and I know from personal experience that a parent can find it very hard to accept that a second child is struggling after the first is diagnosed.

I'm not excusing the cruel behaviour in any way but I think it may be as a result of resentment, confusion and distress that her own needs aren't being met, yet her sister's are. She may not even realise this herself or she may be taunting her sister about her autism precisely because she feel insecure about having ASD herself. My 12YO knew she had ASD for 6 months before I did.

I don't know that splitting them up for a week would help and it may make matters worse.

It may be that the best thing that could happen to your DN is for someone to listen to her with an open mind about the root of her behaviour and explore how she experiences the world. You may find that things are a lot harder for her than anyone has realised.

[Candleglow7475]

God the other thread I really don’t know if leaving her out is the right thing to deal with this though? You sister should be stopping this, it seems like a sustained bullying campaign.

[HexagonalBattenburg]

To be honest as someone who has children with a similar dynamic between them (elder one who can be very defiant and abrasive when allowed to be and a younger child who has a more naturally "easy" character combined with special needs) - I would be incredibly pissed off with you if you turned around and told my DD1 that you were taking the younger siblings away but not her because of her behaviour. That's not your judgement call to make... if you said you were taking them so she could have some special time with her mum - that would be different.

DD1 has elements of this in her - difference is my family don't hate on her for these - we understand WHY she can behave in such a fashion and work on the underlying causes of them... and she does tend to suffer in terms of a lack of attention sometimes when we're managing DD2 through one of her periods of incontinence or emotional upset because of how things are going badly at school and needing time to do things like speech therapy work etc. She is also very very anxious naturally and tends to try to control situations - she'd argue about the moon just so she's in charge and "right" and if you handle it poorly it would end up entrenched with heels dug in on both sides. Underneath it all she's a lovely lovely kid and it's just constantly reminding yourself not to fall into the trap of inadvertently reinforcing the negative attempts at attention seeking - and it's starting to pay dividends but at times of uncertainty we do sometimes just have to batten down the hatches and ride out the storm (we've just been through it until junior school allocations were confirmed). We also have to be quite careful not to handle her in a way to squash her down - she actually needs building her self-esteem UP as it's very fragile and she slips into Vicky Pollard mode to hide this (thankfully school realise this as well - in fact it was one very wise teacher who spotted and unpicked a lot of the pattern).

Difference is mine is generally incredibly kind and protective toward her little sister though - apart from normal sibling bickering.

[SchadenfreudePersonified]

I've re-read the post and why does some of it get you so agitated? Like the moon bit? Does that really matter so much? Has it got to the stage where ANYTHING she does you will see negatively?

When the situation is like this - constant arguing and contradictions and spite - it is just very, very wearing, and even the slightest thing becomes irritating out of all proportion to what it is.

I think this child sounds awful. And I think her mother is buying into her spiteful behaviour by constantly letting her get away with it.

Regarding the prize hat was given away to a stranger rather than to her younger sister - I would have ten the 7 y-o out and bought whatever it was for her.

OP - I wouldn't take this child away with me - your whole holiday will be a nightmare! Tell her why you don't want to take her - that her behaviour (not her) is unacceptable and you can't cope with her being so unpleasant all of the time.

Most children (of both sexes) are, in general, very protective of younger siblings (yes - there will be times they fight like cat and dog, but mostly they look after each other).

This girl is either very troubled or is just a little toad (and some children/ people are). Either way, you can't be expected to put up with it all day every day.

Take your other nieces if your sister will allow them to go without the oldest one, and leave her to have her mother to herself. She will both enjoy it and resent it, but there's nothing you can do about that.

[qazxc]

It's a moot point surely, as DN will not go anywhere without her mum, she will refuse to go on camping trip anyway .

[phobiafreak]

I've ready your previous thread about this and you most definitely ANBU , these poor girls need time away from the 12 year old. How lovely you continue to care for your autistic nieces well being like this, she will remember this.