To leave one niece out?

[HipHipHippoo]

My sister has 3 DDs aged 12, 7 and 2. I have posted before about how the 12 yo is incredibly mean to her siblings, particularly 7 yo who has autism (not sure how to link to previous posts)

We have been away camping this week together with my DC and some incidents make me very angry/irritated with 12 yo niece.

For example:

She knows 7 yo is extremely particular about food - she barely eats and is underweight. 12 yo has stopped 7 yo eating at least 3 meals this week - by purposely knocking her plate across the table so her food would touch, by going on at her to try her meal and putting some of it on her plate (making 7 yo sick) and by coughing all over her food

Anything I or her mum say to anyone, she will answer. For example, I'll say to my DC "Sophie, please stop messing with the tent zips" and DN will say "I'm not messing with them!" even though their names sound nothing alike. She does this constantly

7 yo niece loves my dogs but every time they go near her, 12 yo calls them away so she can't stroke them

We went to some arcades and 12 yo won something she has zero interest in but that she knows 7 yo would adore. 7 yo never asks for anything and told her how lucky she was to win it. 12 yo made a big show of how she didn't want it so was going to give it away, making 7 yo think it would be to her...then gave it to a stranger and smiled smugly straight at 7 yo as she did so

Whenever 7 yo is sitting with or chatting to her mum, 12 yo will call her away then jump in her spot. 12 yo even races to get next to her mum before 2yo then gloats that she has Mummys hand

She corrects or argues with everyone constantly. My DC remarked it was a full moon and she insisted it was only 3/4 despite it clearly being fucking full! She asked where her bag was and I said on her sleeping bag, she kept saying no it isn't- I'm looking and it definitely isn't. It was very slightly off the sleeping bag but she could clearly see it, she just had to argue!

She is constantly after food, drinks and wanting to be bought stuff. She sulks and spoils it if anyone else gets a say in what they want to do and her mood brings everyone down.

I'm taking my DC camping in the summer and was going to offer to take my nieces too to give my sister a break but I really don't want to take 12 yo. I think her sisters would flourish with some time away from her, and that she needs to learn at some point that her behaviour is intolerable and that people won't want to spend time with her if she behaves in this way. However, taking her sisters away is rewarding her in a way as she then gets her mum's full attention.

What do you think? Am I unreasonable to say I don't want to take her?

[Branleuse]

I dont think you should do this. I think you sticking your beak in will make it all worse, and your intense dislike for one of te children will shine through and be damaging. 12 years old is a really tricky age for girls at the best of times. What she needs to know is that she is loved regardless, and her behaviour tackled, but not by withdrawing love.

[NutMeghan]

I feel sorry for the 12 year old. That is a pretty big age gap and she sounds quite bright and obviously jealous of the younger siblings care needs/parental attention.

Their family dynamic sounds like more time and attention needs to be spread to the 12 year old. I would be suggesting to the parents to divide the dc between them and give her as much one to one attention as they can. And I think this needs to come from the parents.

I would also suggest using humour as much as possible to diffuse some of the low level bullying behaviours (answering to other names for instance and the moon talk- that is just a 12 year old being silly and pushing your buttons).

About the camping trip; no I don't think it would be appropriate or effective for you to say that. That is just telling her what she already believes: you like the others more.

Do you really think she is going to stop after having that message reinforced?

[wittyusermane]

Having a sibling with SN can be incredibly tough. Her sibling will almost will certainly take a lot of the parents attention and focus. Add a toddler into the mix and it's really not too hard to see why the 12yo is behaving in ways to garner attention for herself. The poor parents are pulled in different directions trying to meet all of their children's needs and it's tough to parent everyone in the way you'd like to when you are firefighting the whole time.

Some of it sounds like awful behaviour but I don't believe she is a 'bad person' whether she has SN of her own or not; she is a child who is fumbling through her situation and making mistakes. No one sounds particularly happy.

I think taking the others away leaving the eldest with some parental 121 time is a great idea. Or take the 12 year old on her own and invest in your relationship with her. Talk to her and give her a chance on a 121 basis without the complicated sibling dynamics clouding the water. Position the splitting up of them for a trip as a positive thing, because it is, don't badge it as some kind of punishment.

[CatkinToadflax]

Having a sibling with SN can be incredibly tough. Her sibling will almost will certainly take a lot of the parents attention and focus.

^ yes yes yes. My DS1 has complex SEN; DS2 is NT but has had a whole childhood of inevitably sometimes playing second fiddle. Aged about 4, DS2 was in floods of tears one day when I'd just made the eleventy billionth phone call to a professional about DS1's SEN. As always I'd started the call with "Hi, this is LittleCatkin's mum..." DS2 was inconsolable, weeping that I'm TinyCatkin's mummy too but I never talk to people about him so I must love him less. I had had no idea that it could come across like this, especially to such a little boy, but it did.

Longwinded way of saying that I'd be wanting to find out why the 12 year old behaves like this, and give her the support she may need. That's not "having sympathy for the bully rather than the victim" - it's having sympathy for the whole family and trying to make things better for them all.

[FredFlinstoneMadeOfBones]

It's clear that lots of her behaviour is very troubling and must be upsetting to her younger sister BUT it's also very clear that you can't stand her. It's probably also clear to DD12 that you don't like her and so it's possible her behaviour is worse when you're around. Her behaviour needs tackling but from a position of love. There is clearly a reason behind it and your sister should be figuring out what the cause is and tackling it.

Reiterating that you hate DN12 and that's why she can't come camping will clearly not help the situation. However having time away from her younger sister would probably be good for DN12 - with a younger sister with SN and a toddler too it's likely DN12 is sidelined often so time for just her might be a good thing. It also sounds like you wouldn't be able to handle the three kids on top of your own on a camping trip.

Could you liaise with your sister so lots of special grown up activities are planned for DN12 while the others go camping. That way it could be sold as a chance for the kids to be whisked away so DN12 and her mum can do some more grown up stuff (e.g. trip to theatre, spa trip go ape, hairdressers, clothes shopping - whatever DN12 likes which would be difficult with two smaller kids in tow).

[Yabbers]

Some of it sounds typical teen but some of it is bullying behaviour. I would say you can choose not to take her if you wish, but I agree you should frame it as “I’ll take the others so you and DD12 can have some time together”

[Chamomileteaplease]

Her parents never call her out on it or enforce any consequences,

Surely this is the crux of the matter. Autistic sister and baby sister just add to the mix.

Crap parenting = annoying child.

[QueenAnneBoleyn]

YANBU. She sounds like a bully and she’s getting to the age where she needs to learn that her behaviour has consequences.

[TitianaTitsling]

@CatkinToadflax for you, that must have been so upsetting- it's a sad reminder that children take in so much more than we think.

[mummmy2017]

This child has emotional issues, tells Ng her off will not work, she has delayed development of empathy.
It means that when you tell her off she feels victimised, not that she has done wrong . You need to praise her excessively when she does something nice,. And just stop her doing the wrong, till she decides that she likes the praise..
Hard as this is too see , she will not change not because she doesn't want to, but because she can't .

[CantStopMeNow]

It might not just be the 7 year old who has neurological differences.....the 12 year could well be bi-polar or have NPD.
Her parents need to start giving a shit about their dc and deal with their needs instead of just carrying on having children.

[Seaweed42]

Do the difficult thing and take the older niece away on her own for a treat. You may well be surprised at her behaviour when she is away from the threats (of others taking her mother's attention).
Also, she may well behave worse in your company because you take your sister's (her mothers) attention away from her as well.
If you showed her positive behaviour she might respond. She needs the right sort of attention, not more isolation and punishment.

[RhiWrites]

I want to clarify to her that I don't want to take her because of her behaviour. Her parents never call her out on it or enforce any consequences, I think she needs to be shown it's unacceptable.

It’s one thing to not want to be around negative behaviour. It’s another thing to use this trip as a punishment.

Have you asked her why? Why didn’t she give the toy to her sister who would have loved it? Why did she spoil her sister’s meal?

I suspect she doesn’t even know why but playing power games is a sign she feels powerless. It sounds as though her parents are pretty lax here. I accept they have other concerns but a child who is happy and loved doesn’t act out like this.

As an adult you should be thinking about how to help her. Sending the message you don’t like it want her won’t help.

[HomeMadeMadness]

I want to clarify to her that I don't want to take her because of her behaviour.

Oh god I didn't see this before. Definitely don't do this it's not your place and it really won't help. Her behaviour is definitely unacceptable but there will be a cause for it and quite possibly jealously of the attention she feels her younger sister gets will be a part of that. being told essentially you're not nice so you're not getting a nice holiday the rest of your siblings are will definitely not suddenly turn her into an adoring older sister!

By all means encourage your sister to tackle the behaviour but as well as setting boundaries she also needs to get to the root of what is causing her 12 year old to even want to behave like this. The 12 year old sounds like a troubled child who needs compassion too.

[Lweji]

Do the difficult thing and take the older niece away on her own for a treat.

I agree with this and the rest of the post.

Sometimes we need positive action to break up behavioural patterns.

By all means take the youngest on their own, if nothing else because three could be too much/too expensive or because they'd benefit from being away from the oldest.
But also give the oldest some one to one attention.

Particularly when one sibling requires special attention, it can be very hard on the older siblings.
And if you can have a chat with her about how difficult it is to have a special needs sibling.

[Lweji]

By chat I mean let her confide in you and let off steam.

[OoohAyyye]

Tricky. I think if you go ahead with not taking the 12yo camping then you should make an effort to at least have a girly day out with the 12yo. Not just a couple of hours but a proper day out just the two of you. And while you're at it I'd explain how upsetting it was for her little sister to not be given that she'd won. I would ask her to help me find that toy or similar to purchase and she can gift it to her sister. But don't make the whole day about that of course, do some fun "grown up" stuff with her.

[Branleuse]

i definitely think you should do something nice with the 12 year old and build your bond up with her

[CatkinToadflax]

@TitianaTitsling thank you for your kind words. It really shocked me at the time and I felt like a terrible parent, but it was a relief that DS2 told me how he felt when he did. I was certainly guilty of completely unintentionally giving him less attention than I did to DS1 due to DS1’s complex SEN.

[Awwlookatmybabyspider]

What's with that daft snapped. If you're wanting to say something say it. Op's a big girl. I'm certain she can take it.

I agree that it could be her fighting for attention.
As pp says one child has autism and the other is basically a baby.
Therefore She's not exactly top of the attention pecking order.
Yes that's no ones fault, but You try telling that a 12 year old. I don't think leaving her out is going to help matters.
You can't do that to a little girl and not expect her to feel any jealousy or resentment.
How would you have felt if that happened to you at that age.

[MzHz]

Take your own dc away, leave your sister to sort herself out and her kids. Why would you want to volunteer for this level of hassle?

[SinkGirl]

Just so it’s clear where my viewpoint comes from, I have twin 2.5 year olds both with ASD. Just the thought of a child tormenting them and using their difficulties against them fills me with absolute fury, so I can understand why you find this so distressing. It must be awful to see the impact this is having on your DN7.

However, it’s abundantly clear that your DN12 has some severe difficulties of her own, diagnosed or not. She is clearly struggling to empathise with her sister or see the impact her behaviour has on her. How this is handled now will determine how she develops into adulthood. It seems to me that she needs intervention and support right bloody now or she is going to get worse.

[Dieu]

She sounds incredibly immature and insecure. I have a 12 year old daughter, and a well-adjusted child of that age just doesn't behave in this way.
I'm usually pretty strict, and came on this thread fully expecting to say 'yanbu', but the girl clearly has issues, and I'm not sure if excluding her would only exacerbate them.

[HipHipHippoo]

12 yo is certainly not lacking in attention from her parents. She has one on one time with each parent for an activity each week and they usually take just her out at least once a month - to a concert/the theatre/sport the others can't do. When she returns she is even more horrid to the others. 7 yo doesn't require lots of care and attention at all; she's quiet and introverted and 2 yo would happily sit and play alone all day. 12 yo is the centre of attention at all times. 7 yo never gets any one on one time because 12 yo would never go anywhere if she knew about it. She insists on sitting next to her mum everywhere and always pushes 7 yo aside, even if she might be struggling.

She isn't pleasant to my DC or strangers, either. She always has to be better than them and gloat about something. She constantly tells others they're wrong and stupid and that she's amazing. She likes to set up scenarios where she can receive more attention - for example, we were going to the park and I was tying my dogs outside of the play area. DN took my youngest in and started lifting them up onto the slide. I called over to wait and she said no, I can do it. I literally got there in time to catch as she toppled off the 6ft slide. I told her off for not waiting like I'd asked and she stormed off, ranting about how she can't even help anyone without getting told off. My DSis went to comfort her as she continued to protest that it wasn't her fault her cousin could've been badly hurt...!

[youknowmedontyou]

@HipHipHippoo gosh that's a tough one. Part of me says exclude the other part says take the higher moral ground not helpful