How much is your class disrupted by bad behaviour?

[Catinthetwat]

I was just wondering how much of a problem behaviour is in the classroom. I keep hearing that it's getting out of hand.

Interested to hear from teachers and TA's...

When I complained abput explicit political views being continuously expressed @noblegiraffe the head told me that if I didn't like it I should move to the independent sector, same response when I ventured that my child's needs weren't being met vis a vis extension work. Shocked the life put of her when I did move him aged 8 and she was terse and barbed about the impact people like me had on her added value scores. Not people like me actually, people like her because had she run the school better, she'd not have lost him. She was very happy to take 25k pa off the middle classes that made up the school's demographic but not happy to respect their social values and had the cheek to complain about the sort of parents, and she lost 30% of her reception intake by year six because of it.

@Claw01 our EP does 30min obs. Before the holidays our EP had to observe three different children in one class in those 30mins. If they arrange a visit and our SLT are busy on a particular day then it will be arranged for a later date, as a follow up with SLT are required after the obs.

I’m curious to know if there any stats on how many many of these assessments are completed in the 20 week time frame.

I didn’t want it to come across that I was disagreeing with you, just highlighting some of the failures we are currently experiencing in our educational system.

witchtower an EP assessment is a legal requirement of EHCP process. Are you sure the EP visits are to inform EHCP process and not just something school have requested? The LA arrange EHCP EP assessments.

It would be impossible for an EP to write a report to inform EHCP based on an observation alone, unless another EP had very recently assessed. Which doesn’t sound likely, by what you’ve said about how difficult it is to get one and they never carry out assessments.

20 weeks is the timescale, of course the LA abuse it! My point being is not excuse not to request EHCP assessment. It takes time, however, it’s better than the alternative of not requesting!

Tbh it is the school requesting the EP at this moment as there are many children who have been highlighted but have been pushed to the side by the LA. So the school are pushing for the EHCP’s.
We have had no new EHCP’s in this academic year, even though they are needed.

There are currently 5-8 ECHP’s in each class. But more who desperately need. I’m talking obvious.

But the EP’s assessment is a 30min ob but these happen weeks apart. But as you’ve said that’s only a small part of the process.

I do know that our LA had run out funding for SEN half way through the tax year. Maybe certain people have been asked to slow things down off the record.

@claw101 waiting lists for a school named in an EHCP due to being ‘full’ is unlawful

It may well be, but that doesn’t stop it happening. As @Witchtower said: "I do know that our LA had run out funding for SEN half way through the tax year. Maybe certain people have been asked to slow things down off the record." There is a lack of money to support those kids who need it.

As for a comment upthread about those with SEN = bad behaviour, many of the kids I deal with on the behaviour front have SEN or BESD and in many cases, both. In fact I can't think of any kids that have behavioural issues that don't. I'm talking persistent disruption, not just a bit of mucking about. However that does not mean that ALL kids with SEN are disruptive - many are not.

I work in a secondary school in a Pastoral/safeguarding role. My school is large and has a very diverse population, with a catchment area that covers some very affluent areas and some really deprived areas. The majority of my time is taken up by a handful of students from one of the more deprived areas. These students are extremely challenging and disruptive, but also vulnerable.

When I think about our most challenging students (the ones who are repeatedly isolated or subject to fixed term exclusions due to persistent poor behaviour) they are, without exception, kids who are living in very difficult circumstances and this of course has on impact on their behaviour. Their teachers may not be aware (I'm not allowed to tell them due to confidentiality) that they are living with or have experienced extreme poverty, parental mental health issues or substance misuse, domestic abuse, sexual trauma, some have a parent in prison, some are young carers, some are outright neglected or abused while others live in what professionals often describe as "chaotic" households. When they come to school they bring all these issues with them and they know what's waiting for them when they get home, and we wonder why they keep 'acting out'?

These kids will be known to social services, but their thresholds are now so high due to cuts that few actually receive ongoing support. Youth offending services in our area don't have the staff or resources to do preventative work anymore so they can't help these kids until they are actually in the criminal justice system. The local youth centre, which used to do some fantastic work with our most disaffected students, has had to cut its hours and staff. Family Support Workers are as rare as hen's teeth, now only involved in the most extreme of cases where they used to be considered 'early intervention' and are now very limited in the length of time they can work with a family.

Basically all the services who used to support our most complex, vulnerable students and their parents are on their knees. So as a school we are left to try to pick up the pieces. We don't want to isolate kids. We don't want to exclude them. We want to help them and we try our best. But we can't change the home environment.

Many of my disruptive students have imo been poorly parented. The parents have not put boundaries in place and the kids are not used to hearing “no”.
These are not the most disruptive ( the most disruptive are the ones with horrific lives outside of school) but these are responsible for the sort of low level continuous off-task “messing about” that makes it impossible to teach a proper lesson. Their parents are very supportive of the kids but will argue the toss over every detention given. It’s an absolute drain to be in conflict with these students when plenty of others just want to get on with it.

Lack of funding, lack of consistently applied behaviour policies, sheer utter exhaustion from teachers.
It’s not just behaviour issues, it’s mental health issues that have escalated too. (For staff and pupils)
I also wish the curriculum focused less on ways to die. This year (9) dd has had euthanasia, abortion, the holocaust, Jack the Ripper, the death penalty and the handmaid’s tale all to be discussed in depth. Their end of term treat was watching ‘The Pianist’.

I also wish the curriculum focused less on ways to die. This year (9) dd has had euthanasia, abortion, the holocaust, Jack the Ripper, the death penalty and the handmaid’s tale all to be discussed in depth. Their end of term treat was watching ‘The Pianist yes i agree! Its bloody miserable!

I know first hand getting an EHCP is difficult and a specialist placement even harder. I know the LA act unlawfully.

My point being throughout is it is not an excuse for schools to do nothing and blame it on cuts.

Anyhow, even of my waffle il let someone else get a word in!

Claw01

My point being throughout is it is not an excuse for schools to do nothing and blame it on cuts.

A good school will keep trying.

I would love to list what my school does for just one of my classes. But the fact is that we can't do enough because we can't afford it.

I'm not a teacher but freelance in primary schools fairly regularly and I'm shocked at the number of children who just won't stop talking. It's low level constant talking in the background or not just 1 or 2 children, lots of them do it. I don't know how teachers put up with it.

Sometimes I wonder, are they like this at home/are they allowed to be like this?

& It's much worse now than say 5 years ago. I notice the increase in this behaviour. But no doubt it will be excused and explained away somehow. There seem to be no consequences so they can continue disrupting class and wasting the time of a teacher who has to constantly tell them to be quiet.

State schools in London are the worst unfortunately but I can't imagine a solution will be sought so teachers will have to continue to out up with rude children who think it's funny to undermine and argue back and forth with their teacher or have an answer for everything except when it's to do with studies

I wonder how strongly worded his reports have been

I'd love to play you a recording of the personally abusive rant I was on the receiving end of, because I dared to offer faint praise to an extremely disruptive girl in her report. Wasn't good enough and I, apparently, was now the cause of her problems.

Boneyback they cannot try if they are not aware of what they could be doing and following blanket policies set by the LA, instead of what the Law actually requires!

Unfortunately it always falls to parents. A child’s education really should not rest on how much your parents know about Educational Law!

We had a parent complain because the teacher pointed out the areas where their child was struggling . She also had many positives like his behaviour,social skills,manners etc. Massive rant at the HT shouting "she basically called my kid a -r word-!!" , with the child sitting right next to them.

Too many kids have verbal diarrhoea.
Every thought that goes through their head is instantly spoken.

It's a form of attention seeking, and definitely a reflection of the more selfish society we live in. 'You WILL hear my thoughts because in my world my thoughts are more important than what you are saying and everyone else's needs'.

They are never taught to take turns in conversation, or to wait before butting in when someone else is having a conversation. Again, attention seeking.

Hence, they butt into teachers when they're explaining or modelling and it constantly interrupts the lesson. Any reprimand is "unfair" or "I didn't do nuffink" as at home, the world revolves around these kids.

Now, the seriously disruptive children usually have bloody good reason and tbh schools are desperate in trying to help but there's so little outside help or specialist provision that it's almost impossible. The schools can't do any more, and the kids are failed. It's heartbreaking.

But....the constant low level disruption is worse in terms of grinding impact. No doubt about it. In my near two decades in a classroom, it's definitely worse.

Claw01

I understand that but once again we are going down the disruptive kids = Kids with SEND.

This isn't the case.

I wish we'd stop calling it low level disruption. The constant interruptions and stupid questions and mucking about is hugely disruptive if you are a quiet student who likes to be able to concentrate.

Do you think levels of disruption (eg the inability to focus on a task, or to stop talking) could be linked to the fact that they (at secondary level anyway) spend almost every spare minute looking at a flashing device that provides more mental stimulation in a minute than an actual human could in a day? I don’t see the two as being unconnected.

@Claw01 you’re right it’s not an excuse for schools to do nothing. But to tell you the truth I’m tired, physically and mentally tired.
My workload is ridiculous. I work with all the children in my school with SEN, EBD and any extra support needed. I go above and beyond my role but I’m not required too, that’s why so many people are leaving that sector. Teachers/staff are unable to do their job to a good standard. We’re scraping the barrel, which is unacceptable, but out of my hands. But I really do try my best. Most people would walk out the door after being punched once. On another note which I do agree with is that I do not go to work to be physically abused. At work I hold my tongue but I’d be lying if I didn’t say it pissed me off. But I go home and think about why that child has reacted in that way and attempt to put my mind at ease. Basically moan to my partner.

I would say that concentration levels have little to do with mobile phones, given that so many primary age children lack the same ability to focus.

@Geraniumpink the majority of our year 5&6 have mobile phones. Also most of our younger ones either play fortnite all night or sit on the iPad all evening.

That’s not to say I agree or disagree with your comment.

Having worked in state and independent schools, the independent ones seem to be more successful partly because the children do focus very well- I know that the children still have phones and play computer games though!

@Geraniumpink I agree but responsible parents limit the screen time and only allow their children to play specific games. The children I work with are allowed to watch the iPad/computer all night and some children are up until 4am playing fortnite. The parents I work with are quite open about this as they see nothing wrong with it.

Also most of our younger ones either play fortnite all night or sit on the iPad all evening.

Anyone else find it strange that a child can play fortnite for hours yet not sit still or focus for 15 minutes in a classroom?