How should white people refer to other races (in UK)

[seesawteddy]

I am not being provocative, I genuinely need to know what words are offensive because I think I mess up sometimes.
I thought ‘brown people’ was okay because that’s what my Indian friends use to refer to themselves and each other, but just read on here it’s offensive, so must just be the norm for my group of mates.

Another one is ‘people of colour / PoC, it’s the term my friend from Iraq uses and he’s doing a phd to do with race equaity. But I’ve had a few funny look recently when I used it.

The problem with Asian/Midde Eastern/Pakistani etc is sometimes I don’t know what someone’s heritage is, and also I think it is rude if they are actually British citizens.

So if I want to say something like “What have been the experiences of ___ in UK airports?”
How would I say it?

I try not to refer to race unless I know the persons involved - saves any aggro.

If I know them I'll say from an X background if country/region (Ash comes from an Asian background/Mackey comes from an Irish background).

If it's related to skin tone I'd probably use what the person preferred.

If they are black/white or Asian/Indian I'd say mixed race/heritage.

I don’t mind being called mixed race. I don’t like biracial or dual heritage because my heritage is much more complicated than being split into two categories

The British Sociological Association deemed the term mixed-race as "misleading since it implies that a 'pure race' exists". I think the BSA would prefer people to use dual-heritage now but I think it's up to YOU how you are referred to, not the BSA.

Here is an interesting article where it asks young people what THEY think "rather than having an academic association speak on behalf of people".

www.vice.com/en_uk/article/av9abj/mixed-race-dual-heritage-young-brits-experience

There’s nothing hard about it On repeat?

Or is it just that asking anyone anything about themselves is becoming infra dig ?

@Jenny17 My husband has family in South Africa so it would be relevant to know if his friend was South African too. They might want to chat about a Braai.

Here you go.
If the police can use them they cannot be illegal & I have given up trying to keep up with the endless changing what you are allowed to say that isn't offensive.

IC1
White - North European
IC2
White - South European
IC3
Black
IC4
Asian - Indian subcontinent
IC5
Chinese, Korean, Japanese, or other Southeast Asian
IC6
Arab or North African
IC7
Unknown

The British Sociological Association deemed the term mixed-race as "misleading since it implies that a 'pure race' exists". It's dual-heritage or mixed-parentage now

The thing is, if I take my cue from the BSA I will end up offending someone and I don't ever want to do that.

Another interesting site with this to say:

They advise alternatives including "mixed parentage" and "dual heritage". To advise alternatives such as "mixed parentage" and "dual heritage" shows how out of touch the British Sociological Association are with terminology that is accurate and inoffensive as both terms can refer to individuals who have more than one culture and do not necessarily refer to those who have parents of different races

For an organisation that promotes sociology, the British Sociological Association seems to have little understanding of the mixed-race experience

www.intermix.org.uk/news/news_110215_01.asp

The British Sociological Association deemed the term mixed-race as "misleading since it implies that a 'pure race' exists". I think the BSA would prefer people to use dual-heritage now but I think it's up to YOU how you are referred to, not the BSA.

That’s interesting and I get their point, but dual heritage is just completely wrong for me. My heritage is not split in two and if I call myself this, then which two parts am I referring to and why would I want to ignore the rest. So, for me mixed race is still the closest thing.

downthestrada

See, I'd rather hear what YOU think than the BSA

I am not surprised people are confused with these "authorities" telling us all what to say when they are getting it wrong for so many people.

“Or is it just that asking anyone anything about themselves is becoming infra dig ?”
Of course not- but if you ask them there’s no need for endless speculation and knot tying, is there? I am white, but my national identity is very complicated. People very rarely ask me about it. I am sure if I was black they would

The good thing about language is that it's usually shaped and defined by the people at large, rather than sociological societies.

“& I have given up trying to keep up with the endless changing what you are allowed to say that isn't offensive“
Tell me about the endless changing?

Of course not- but if you ask them there’s no need for endless speculation and knot tying, is there? The point I think you are wilfully missing is that many, including me have said the same. It is the reason for having to ask that is being discussed!

And you know about the 'endlessly changing' - it was central to another recent thread, wheer you persisted that your own experience was paramount nd that any of us with different experiences must be lying or deluded!

As a subject of the endless change, I actually agree that it's endlessly changing. I don't think I ever refer to anyone by ethnicity so I don't worry about causing offence but I am puzzled by a lot of it. I would actually prefer non-white if I have to go in a box.

I no longer tick boxes about this stuff because who the fuck knows what they are asking. A poster mentions police categories. What are they based on and what are they used for?

I think it is good that you have acknowledged this, quite often people because non whites of being overly sensitive of what they are being referred to as and this can be very annoying.

I also see why as a white person it can be difficult not knowing what to say, so some pointers from a non white person;

• Mixed race for someone that is from a mixed background. I would not use any other term here if you do not want to risk offense.

• If someone is Indian, Pakistani or chinese/japanese or descends from anywhere in Asia, best to stick to Asian. Know lots of Asian people and never had anyone feel offended by this.

• For African/Jamaican or any other person from either Africa/Carribean or of this descent you are best sticking to black unless you know specifically if they are African/Jamaican etc.

• There is this whole debate about the term black however as a black person I do not find it offensive. I don't like coloured, brown etc. Being called black is no different to calling white people white. I appreciate technically this is not our colour lined up against a colour chart but I feel they are the most likely to not cause offence.

Just my opinion, I am sure there are people that will shoot it down but as a non white person this is how I feel I would be least likely offended.

A poster mentions police categories. What are they based on and what are they used for?

Perpetrator seen fleeing crime scene. All officers in the area please look out for someone of known ethnicity but we're not going tell....

Really? You can't see why ethnicity isn't useful.

titchy I've had worldwide guesses on my ethnicity so didn't think it was automatically useful in that way.

I’d be more than happy to go along with that snuggle

My Japanese friends hate being called Asian as to them it seems to lump them in with a whole host of races and is offensive. She thinks of herself as white. Indian/Pakistani are not white and yet insensitive Brits call them bot Asian as if differences in this huge continent are irrelevant.

The problem is not what to call people but what happens if someone does not like what you call them. If someone gets me wrong I'm not bothered. For some people the "wrong" terminology can lead to all sorts of trouble.

“Of course not- but if you ask them there’s no need for endless speculation and knot tying, is there? The point I think you are wilfully missing is that many, including me have said the same. It is the reason for having to ask that is being discussed!”
Is it? I genuinely missed that- I thought this thread, qua OP, was what words to use. I now don’t know what the thread is about at all.

And incidentally, on the other thread, the discussion about when the use of “coloured” became unacceptable, the debate was about whether it was 30,20 or 10 years ago. So hardly “endlessly changing”!

It would be silly if we cannot refer to someones race/skin colour and this is from a non white person. I just think people should use their common sense.

Whoever commented that their Japanese friends get offended being called Asian - what would they prefer? Because how would I know what part of Asia you are from and if I don't know then how can I refer?

As a black person I do not expect people to start guessing which island in the Caribbean I am from or even if I am from Africa/Jamaica etc. Even as a black person I sometimes cannot tell you if someone is Caribbean or African etc so how can I expect others to know? Our expectations are becoming too high.

And to say we should not refer to race/skin colour is unreasonable, I like people referring to my race/heritage because I am proud of it. And to expect people not to refer to my race or colour I feel somehow comes across as me being ashamed of where I am from? Just my personal opinion I am not suggesting everyone should feel this way.

Perpetrator seen fleeing crime scene. All officers in the area please look out for someone of known ethnicity but we're not going tell....

Really? You can't see why ethnicity isn't useful.

This is hilarious!!! I agree

@Bertrand Russel my niece (who is quarter Mauritian, quarter Anglo Saxon, quarter French & quarter Celtic according to her) probably tells me a new thing I'm supposed to call her every year or so.
I just call her by her first name.
Her friends (of varying ethnic origins) are all the same.

I'm not going to list every term that has been used in the past 50 years but there have been many & many of them, even terms that I was bought up to believe were actually complimentary & had nothing but good connotations are now apparently deeply offensive.

A friend who would never be described as IC1 or 2 was cautioned by the police after saying to his neighbours who kept throwing noisy parties "Would you people please keep the noise down".
They reported it as racist & a hate crime because they were IC3s.

So, if even 'you people' to refer to a group is potentially racist unless of course it's said to a white person (not that I have ever met a person who was actually the colour white) when apparently anything goes, then what am I supposed to use if I have to describe someone & what they look like is relevant?

To those saying "dont mention skin colour / ethnicity; find some other descriptor", that's often not practical at all. I work in the NHS and wear scrubs at work like all my colleagues. If patients have forgotten my name and are trying to identify me it's much easier when they include the fact that I'm not white than if they say "she's slim with glasses and dark hair in a ponytail", which describes probably 20% of the staff. If they include "she's brown / looks mixed race / olive-skinned" they have a much higher chance of finding me - which I want them to be able to do if they have a question or have something!

“even terms that I was bought up to believe were actually complimentary & had nothing but good connotations are now apparently deeply offensive”. Like what?.

“A friend who would never be described as IC1 or 2 was cautioned by the police after saying to his neighbours who kept throwing noisy parties "Would you people please keep the noise down".
They reported it as racist & a hate crime because they were IC3s”

This is a misunderstanding, not racism!