How should white people refer to other races (in UK)

[seesawteddy]

I am not being provocative, I genuinely need to know what words are offensive because I think I mess up sometimes.
I thought ‘brown people’ was okay because that’s what my Indian friends use to refer to themselves and each other, but just read on here it’s offensive, so must just be the norm for my group of mates.

Another one is ‘people of colour / PoC, it’s the term my friend from Iraq uses and he’s doing a phd to do with race equaity. But I’ve had a few funny look recently when I used it.

The problem with Asian/Midde Eastern/Pakistani etc is sometimes I don’t know what someone’s heritage is, and also I think it is rude if they are actually British citizens.

So if I want to say something like “What have been the experiences of ___ in UK airports?”
How would I say it?

I agree with intensiveeveline - you sound like a great mum Sparklegem. Good luck and do consider starting your own thread in Parenting as it's often a bit of a long haul and people will be able to offer support to you there.

It’s a potentially provocative pastime if you’re going to go about asking minority ethnicities what their experiences of passing through airport customs are like.

Just do the same as you would when describing any colour of skin people. ‘That blonde woman in a red dress’, ‘that beardy bloke with the orange top’, ‘that younger woman in the black headscarf’.

@intensiveeveline I started a thread last night, going into more detail of one incident that happened this week. Unfortunately I do not know anyone who is experiencing this as his school only has 4 children from different backgrounds including him. And his school has around 200 pupils.

I don't talk about race at all unless it is literally the only way to describe the person (ie one Asian child in a group of white school children wearing the same uniform - sorry couldn't think it another example!)

And I'll probably get slated for this but when I have been abroad I don't like being referred to as English. I have English family but I am not English and it does annoy me people assume that just because I'm from the UK. That's why I find it difficult because while I see a different skin tone from myself, I don't like to assume anyone nationality.

I understand there could be issues in education but there should be a list of all ethnicities that people can choose from, and that way you would get better results for stats. That way you are not lumping kids from China with kids from say Jamaica for example. These groups are so different and should not be in the same category of simply non-white/other, that way you get a more accurate picture as well.

What makes you think that there aren't NoHolidaysforyou? You seem to be theorising a lot, but seem to not be aware of how things are actually used?

I haven't r all tft yet but I'm happy with being called black. POC puts my teeth on edge. My mixed raced son calls me, his sister and himself brown. I don't suggest anything else because he's right, technically we are. And he's 4 . Of course, no one else is allowed to call me this!
He used to talk about his race a lot and question why he wasn't white like his dad. And why he didn't have "flat" hair as he called it. It used to make me sad that he didn't like his ethnicity but he's still young and we live in a diverse area so he's surrounded by all the colours and as he gets older I'm hoping he'll like the skin he's in. It took me a while to. (Think: child of the 80s - a whole other thread!)
I hope your son's situation improves @SparkleGem

I just googled what BaME stands for. Black and Minority Ethnicity is the result I got, and I appreciate when things are looked more in depth than this. I don't think BaME should be the default term.

These groups are so different and should not be in the same category of simply non-white/other, that way you get a more accurate picture as well.

Yes that happens I said that different ethnic groups have different experiences. That doesn't negate the fact that in most arenas white people are the advantaged group. So you have to 'other' people to describe the issue. Then you start to look deeper to get meaningful data and mechanisms to address the disadvantage.

I just googled what BaME stands for. Black and Minority Ethnicity is the result I got, and I appreciate when things are looked more in depth than this. I don't think BaME should be the default term.

As I've just said Black Asian and Minority Ethnic is the term. What would you prefer - non-white

I would prefer Middle Eastern, like I am or even Caucasian if you want to refer to people from the Caucasus Mountains.

BaME is still not an accurate term for disadvantaged groups. You could have children in poor white families that are disadvantaged when you compare them to children who come from affluent families of Saudi Arabia or China. This world view of BaME as solely disadvantaged non-whites is out of date.

“BaME is still not an accurate term for disadvantaged groups.”

That’s why in circumstances where it’s important, there are more detailed categories-collecting data in education, for example, or in the example the OP gave. It’s just that we don’t need that sort of detail in everyday life.

In everyday life you should ask your friend about their heritage and show interest if you want to refer to them by their heritage. You shouldn't call them a BaME, that is just weird.

I find it funny that this is discussed so much here. Are people really needing to use skin colour as a descriptor as much as everyone makes out on here?

It’s really rare for me to be in a situation where I’m really really need to describe someone by the colour of their skin. I think I just describe people by what they are wearing or holding or doing - just like I would any white person.

I don’t mind being called mixed race. I don’t like biracial or dual heritage because my heritage is much more complicated than being split into two categories. The thing is I’m not easily defined so I get called the Chinese girl, Indian girl, black girl etc. It wears you down a bit but I don’t get too annoyed. I just think by now people should know better than to guess and make assumptions.

“In everyday life you should ask your friend about their heritage and show interest if you want to refer to them by their heritage. You shouldn't call them a BaME, that is just weird”

Do you refer to your white friends by their heritage?

Interesting thread, this. I know it's all very serious and po-faced but there's something about people on the cusp of spontaneously combusting as a result of the stress of navigating the apparent mine-field of 'correct' terms to refer to race and ethnicity that makes me laugh hysterically.

To answer the OP’s question of how would you say: “What have been the experiences of _ in UK airports?”

I suppose you could say, for those who aren’t white, what have been your experiences in UK airports? Here you wouldn’t be defining anyone and you wouldn’t be saying “non-white”.

“cusp of spontaneously combusting as a result of the stress of navigating the apparent mine-field of 'correct' terms to refer to race and ethnicity that makes me laugh hysterically.”

Particularly as I suspect many of them have not interacted with a non white person since 1997........

Yes and actually in the UK I go a step further as I say what part their from (i.e. Glaswegian, Yorkshire Lad/Lass etc). If I have a friend from Hungary, then I refer to them as Hungarian or a friend from France is referred to as French if I need to refer to their heritage. I don't just call them white. What is so hard about that?

NoHolidaysforyou yeah I would describe like that too if it was relevant to the conversation.

In everyday life you should ask your friend about their heritage and show interest if you want to refer to them by their heritage. You shouldn't call them a BaME, that is just weird

Why would you want / need to refer to your friend by their heritage? Most people go by their name!

I don't suggest anything else because he's right, technically we are. And he's 4

My DD is 4, we are white and her best friend is black. When I first asked her who she was she said 'the brown girl with the purple dress' (she was 3 at the time). I told her not to say that although she was just describing what she saw and she looked confused! She wouldn't have thought about it before.

I think everyone should be proud of there heritage but also feel that constantly making differences (as in what colour your skin looks) is unnecessary and grouping all people with different skin tone as one. That goes for me being white too. I'm Scottish, not English, Welsh or Irish and I'm proud of that.

My problem is how we are portraying things to our children by making issues or divisions when there shouldn't be any.

I also hate the term POC... how is that different from the term coloured with all it's racist connotations?

It's very much a mine field as most decent people do not want to offend.

I'll bite

Do you refer to your white friends by their heritage? Yes. Sometimes, if they are Welsh (I live near the border), Croation, Serbian - lots of Eastern European national round here. It is interesting to exchange cultrual mores.

Particularly as I suspect many of them have not interacted with a non white person since 1997 And there you go again. An mocking assumption that reflects really poorly on you, but you think it is a point well scored. And you are wrong, again, in my case certainly. That's the bit of information you persisted in ignoring last time we 'discussed' this topic in a thread. My experience is as vaid as yours, just different, You don't speak for all BaME people in the UK. And yet....

*their!!

There’s nothing hard about it- I just can’t think of many circumstances where I ever refer to people’s heritage- except maybe to appeal for support ..”You’re Hungarian, it is paprika in goulash, isn’t it???”, when I would be rightly told to bigger off, he knows less about goulash than I do because I watch cookery programmes and he grew up in Maida Vale..