How should white people refer to other races (in UK)

[seesawteddy]

I am not being provocative, I genuinely need to know what words are offensive because I think I mess up sometimes.
I thought ‘brown people’ was okay because that’s what my Indian friends use to refer to themselves and each other, but just read on here it’s offensive, so must just be the norm for my group of mates.

Another one is ‘people of colour / PoC, it’s the term my friend from Iraq uses and he’s doing a phd to do with race equaity. But I’ve had a few funny look recently when I used it.

The problem with Asian/Midde Eastern/Pakistani etc is sometimes I don’t know what someone’s heritage is, and also I think it is rude if they are actually British citizens.

So if I want to say something like “What have been the experiences of ___ in UK airports?”
How would I say it?

Whoops hard right obv

Why do you have to refer to their race at all? Just call them by their name.

If someone looks like they have African or Caribbean skin tone (ie dark skin) I call them black. If they have lighter skin tone, I would refer to to them as looking mixed race. If they look like they are from India, Pakistan or South East Asia, I call them Asian. If I was trying to fill in the blank in your airport example, I would say ‘people with darker skin or skin tone’. I would not say brown people. That sounds wrong.

I’m Asian in the uk and Indian in the states:
I’m actually born and raised in the uk so I just say I’m British
🤷🏽‍♀️🤦🏾‍♀️

In the sentence you gave I would say what is the experience of non-white/Caucasian people.... I wouldn't complicate it.

The only issue with Asian vs Black is that Asian describes an ethnicity based on heritage location whereas black describes a perceived colour.... many people who are mixed race end up being called "black" as at what point does your skin become "light enough" to be called mixed race? --- this is definitely the case for my DH.

And if I was describing someone to my partner I would say South Asian for India/Pakistan/Bangladesh and East Asian for China etc--- I know they have huge cultural differences so it's not ideal.

The same way I would describe someone as Northern European or Southern European...

I'm half black Kenyan and half Indian, but look Indian. Gave up explaining my heritage a some time ago. I jest let it slide now, people call me Asian. That's fine

@LloydColeandtheCoconuts great to read your post, and thank you! I am forever telling my son to be proud of his heritage, skin colour and his curly hair too! But he is only five so he's only young still. Hoping and praying this is a one off, I'm heartbroken.

Where is Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines?
What about Mongolia?

“And if I was describing someone to my partner I would say South Asian for India/Pakistan/Bangladesh and East Asian for China etc--- I know they have huge cultural differences so it's not ideal.”
I know I’m going on- but why would you use either?

“The same way I would describe someone as Northern European or Southern European...”

Would you really? I’m not sure I would....I would say that there was someone new at work-she’s just arrived from Italy, but I don’t think I would describe someone as Southern European...

I've been told (by white people) that Oriental is offensive because "it's a carpet not a person".

As a white person speaking, white people do NOT get to say what non-white people are or are not allowed to find offensive when they are being identified/described.

Is anyone trying to do that? I thought al of us white / not coloured posters were trying hard to work out was isacceptable. Not insist we know better!

And can you not see the humour / hypocrisy that you state all of that prefaced by "As a white person"

I was responding to the suggestion quoted by a PP that white people get to call the word ‘Oriental’ as offensive, regardless of whether people actually from the eastern side of the world (as represented and commonly understood with reference to the world map) may wish to describe themselves as that. I sometimes describe myself as a westerner or as living in ‘the west’ if it’s relevant to the point I'm trying to make. I'd happily use the word 'Occidental' in such cases, but for some reason, it's nowhere near as universally understood. I was in no way criticising the people in this thread wanting to have an educated discussion with a view to not inadvertently offending non-white people.

Why is it funny or hypocritical that I identify myself as a white person in order to state that ‘white people LIKE ME’ don’t get to tell non-white people what they should or shouldn't find offensive? Please explain – I'm genuinely curious.

"I just don't understand why we have to select two binary 'opposites' and force people to choose one or the other; or worse, assuming that white is the default and that everybody who isn't 10th-generation white is categorised with everybody else as 'other'."

Then you aren't seeing the systemic discrimination that makes this distinction meaningful. It's as simple as that

I understand historical and current white privilege. Does it just mean that we accept this as inevitable and make it ‘Them And Us’, then? Are we saying that all non-white people across the entire world should just lump themselves together in one big group and take their whole identity from the fact that they aren’t white?

I just googled what BaME stands for. Black and Minority Ethnicity is the result I got, and I appreciate when things are looked more in depth than this. I don't think BaME should be the default term.

As I've just said Black Asian and Minority Ethnic is the term. What would you prefer - non-white

Apologies if I inadvertently caused any offence by using a lower-case 'a' in Bame/BAME. I, too, believed (from what I've heard said on the BBC) that the 'a' simply stood for 'and' rather than 'Asian'.

I don't think you can avoid terms altogether, some things are different poor educational attainment of working class white boys and afro caribbean children, that in general children of Indian origin outperform those of Pakistani origin if these differences are to be addressed they have to be acknowledged
also race can be important in medical histories etc

Also if asked to describe someone when you don't know them ( so can't use a name) you might say the girl with long blonde hair and a red jacket or she had a brown ponytail skinny jeans and a pink hoody or the black guy with navy suit and silver tie or he was over 6" with ginger hair a celtic top and dark jeans if you only get a glimpse of someone what you notice is hair colour skin colour height and maybe clothes if not in uniform

@Bertrand - as @DoubtofTheOrdinary says, when you work in a place seeing lots of new people each day, or where people wear uniforms, scrubs etc, it can be very useful to be able to be identified and to identify people by appearance. Obviously if you have time to get to know someone and learn about their specific origins then of course mention that (where relevant). Usually name doesn’t help that much because I use descriptors where the person I am conversing with does not know the person being described.

Vague regions (eg south Asian, northern European) may help as due to history some geographical neighbours have had wars in the past and might object to being mistaken for another?

Yes I would describe someone as Northern European etc if I didn't know what nationality they were. My partner and I work for really big international companies which have divisions per European region. So I'm always having to talk about the Southern Europe team and if I've only met someone once or twice I might not know their actual nationality... same re Pakistani or Indian

Re: oriental. I’m ok with it but my brother and cousin aren’t (because of historical western views - fetishising the culture)... so I guess probably avoid.

Well, yes, if everyone’s wearing scrubs...... And yes, there are reasons why in some professional contexts you need a breakdown of races and ethnicities. Both of these things have been acknowledged repeatedly. But surely saying the Sourhern European team is different from describing an individual as a Southern European?

I would describe someone as southern or Northern European if I didn’t know their origin too.
Or maybe just forrin

Depending on the context (I honestly try not to refer to someones race at all if it can be avoided):

Afro-caribbean, African* or black, or by country of origin if known (eg Nigerian, Zimbabwean etc)
Asian or middle Eastern.

"Brown" is offensive, IMO.

*African is a grey area, as obviously there are white people in Africa, and Africa also includes places like Egypt where people are mostly more middle eastern in appearance. But in this context, it more clearly means black than anything else, if that makes sense!

I feel an urge to ask all my friends if this has been causing them angst all these years. I had NO IDEA people tried so hard not to offend.

BasilTheGreat there are some limited contexts where it is relevant, mostly places like hospitals, schools, legal or social work. They would not refer to someone as "That Asian/Black person over there in the red coat" but might refer to their heritage in a wider context such as healthcare (eg Afro Caribbean or Asian people might have higher rates of certain conditions compared to other races), social and educational (cultural factors etc) or things like witness statements- little point in describing someone who, for example, mugged you without describing what they looked like! In general, though, I would expect the professionals to know the current terms in the first context, and for people to just stick to "white" "asian" "black" etc for the second.

“I had NO IDEA people tried so hard not to offend.”

I had no idea that so many people spent so long trying to describe people by colour/ethnic origin!

Bertrand "I had no idea that so many people spent so long trying to describe people by colour/ethnic origin!"

I did, but that's probably because of being not-white. I have spent the last 15 years or so thinking people are making a bigger and bigger deal of it, some are trying not to be offensive and some are just not accepting that non-white can mean British. It's so weird all round.

In general I try not to offend, and try not to refer to someones cultural or racial background unless I have to (and mostly I don't, it's not relevant). if asked to describe somebody, of course, their skin colour is probably the most obvious thing to see, so I might say "she's an Indian lady in a red jumper" rather than beat around the bush trying to avoid something that isn't a negative thing to point out about someone (I do understand that some people may use racial descriptions negatively).