AIBU to think Brexit has shone light on a really unpleasant racist underbelly allowing it to flourish?

[KennDodd]

I know, I know not all Leavers are racist, really, I do know that. But the (lovely, non racist) Leavers must be able to see this, they really cant be blind to the unsavoury characters and groups promoting Brexit for all their worth. I don't know what can be done about this, if there's any way to put these groups back in the box?

I don’t know what can be argued as the data isn’t there due to underground work. But I know what I see and hear from polish friends!

People paying buttons for coffee and veg prepared by highly qualified smiley people from Poland working here in low skilled jobs they are hugely overqualified for? This is good and why exactly?

And students getting shit jobs to supplement their loan or after they graduate is good why?
People move to places where they can earn quick money - and have done so before FOM. I used to work for less then a £1/hour 35 years ago in the tourist industry. Shit wages, long hours but go some money into the house. It's what people do. It isn't an FOM thing. It's incumbent upon all of us to ensure people are protected in the labour market from exploitation.

And is incumbent upon all of us to close loopholes that allow fraud.

It isn't an FOM thing. It's incumbent upon all of us to ensure people are protected in the labour market from exploitation.
I agree with this.
But FoM has made things so much worse. Take a look at what happened at Greencore in Northampton. Local wages suppressed. Recruitment in Hungary. Workers doing freezing overnight shifts so the middle classes can pay less for their M&S sandwiches. And then look at the CEO Coveney's wages!!! It's a dirty story and it was enabled by FoM.

There wasn't some pre FOM glory era when low skills jobs had decent pay which has all been ruined by E European workers.

@Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow
(cool name)

"Until the laws were tightened, many claimed benefits for children back home."

Other European countries have exactly the same laws though - Germany is currently discussing stopping it but constitutional lawyers are finding issues with stopping the payments for people legitimately working in Germany, they are entitled to all the benefits that brings.

I'm interested in the talk of uncontrolled immigration, though. From what I read there are around 3 million EU migrants in the UK. They are there under FoM and as the UK has no registration system* there is no way of knowing exactly who and how many.
I also read that a lot of people are anti FoM and more in favour of an equal across the board immigration process because that will stop "discriminating" against non-EU spouses & families coming in. (although my guess, i haven't researched it because it doesn't affect me, is that the standards the UK has now won't be lowered). Is there really so much uncontrolled immigration? How does anyone know

*in Germany everyone has to register where they live. Your address is on your ID card and you have 2 weeks grace period if you change your residence to get this updated at the town hall. This applies to everyone. Until a few (can't remember exactly) years ago, EU nationals had to register the same way as every other foreigner (that wasn't fun) but the rules changed so that EU nationals have to be treated the same way as nationals (except they don't have all the same voting rights etc).
What this does is show the breakdown of everyone in Germany, which is interesting. It also means that for every euro / local election everyone receives their voting slip without having to take any action at all. (whether they exercise that right is another matter - but nobody is excluded because they forgot or didn't know to register)

Which is all rather off topic. Sorry.

The idea the JRM and other ERG people want to bring in some sort of high wage nirvana for British folk is laughable.

What I don't understand is.... if we have less EU workers in the NHS/customer services roles--- we will still need to fill the spots as we don't have enough British workers, won't this result in recruitment drives in Indian/Pakistan/Caribbean etc similar to the 50s..... then the people who voted leave along the lines of "we want less foreigners" will be faced with even more non white workers than if we had stayed in EU? 😚

Yes it has

I think the growth of the right wing has been there for sometime when it rears it’s ugly head most is at times of economical hardship it’s happened in history over and over again and we never learn

The blame game

Just realised the emoji I used has come out very different! On my phone it was the thinking one which seems to have transformed into a kissing one !!!

Lack of British workers, won't this result in recruitment drives in Indian/Pakistan/Caribbean etc similar to the 50s..... then the people who voted leave along the lines of "we want less foreigners" will be faced with even more non white workers than if we had stayed in EU?

I have always thought this too. The reality is that there are already more than 100,000 NHS staff vacancies – that’s 1 in 11 of all NHS posts.

However now I'm realising that actually it serves the agitating Torys interests to reduce staffing in this way. It will please and placate the ERG who always voted to reduce expenditure on NHS, state education and social care in favour of tax cuts.

I have two friends who are overworked NHS consultants. Both of them came on the People's vote march. One says she does ward rounds etc advising on the care patients need but she knows (due to the acute lack of staff) that her recommendations can't be implemented. She also says they are desperately trying to replace the departed EU staff with other nationalities for example Filipinos but privately she says they can't get enough and on average they just aren't as well trained as the EU ones. The other consultant says one of her main problems is doctors going off sick as they can't cope with the stress.

I always naively thought that politicians wouldn't let the NHS staff crisis develop to this point without taking action. However the truth is that the current government want to shrink state funded health care. The staffing crisis further enables a privatised system by stealth.
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Calledyoulastnigh

Not paying taxes is hardly restricted to EU nationals! Self employed? claim a very low salary and pay no tax on it & take the rest as cash in hand or as a dividend - all rife in the building industry.

Benefit fraud is v v low compared to corporate tax avoidance and way below the 6billion cut in corp tax.

Whose fault is it if UK business and individuals are paying out cash for work done? certainly not the EU's and its not the EUs fault that small towns that have had large influxes of EU migrants have had zero investment.

In my sector, there has been very little impact with migration, our company employs few EU citizens, yet we've not had regular pay rises for years.... employers have paid themselves huge increases, yet blame the 2008 GFC to make sure we have little, atm wage rises are primarily driven by above inflation increases in min wage.

@lonelyplanetmum God that's bleak isn't it? But I think you're absolutely right. I'm originally from North East and a family
member commented on the number of Filipino nurses at a rural hospital - they must be desperately understaffed already.

There wasn't some pre FOM glory era when low skills jobs had decent pay which has all been ruined by E European workers.

Quite.

If peolple voted leave to stop immigration then they have been badly mislead, we have a chronic labour shortage in many areas, the nhs, construction and service industry to name a few we simply cannot fill these jobs with UK workers as they just aren't there. Our ageing population means that very soon people who have retired will outnumber tax payers so EU migrants will just be replaced with migrants from further afield.

This is already happening as I witnessed first hand during a short stay in hospital, all of the nursing and auxiliary staff in the department I was in were all baring one or two either Asian or African (and they were all fabulous and very efficient)

I always naively thought that politicians wouldn't let the NHS staff crisis develop to this point without taking action. However the truth is that the current government want to shrink state funded health care. The staffing crisis further enables a privatised system by stealth

The US have been unequivocal about the fact that they want access to the UK healthcare market (= privatision, at least in part) of NHS services. They see the NHS as a protectionist organisation (with loads of lovely money to spend) and want in. This is what the US is using as their bargaining tool with the UK to get the trade deals done in the same way other countries are using visas.

One other benefit of EU membership has been the equivalency of qualifications. If you employ a nurse for a particular role, you can compare their qualifications no matter where in the EU they did their training. There isn't (afaik) anything standardised like that with other countries.

The combination of Brexit and more extreme right leaning government will be the death of the NHS it will be sold off piece by piece to big business and insurance companies in fact it is happening now with swathes now being owned by Virgin, Nuffield and Bupa, I think that in as little as 5 years time if you don't qualify for or are able to afford private health care the only treatment you will be able to access with of a third world standard.

Haven’t read the full thread, but YANBU OP - I find it genuine,y shocking when I read posts on here declaring that the poster will vote for UKIP as if that was perfectly normal. Often all the while denying that they are racist.

Clearly, not all Leavers are racist, but the ones I’ve seen online at least are not helping themselves by their alternating victim/aggressive stance and by having their feelings so terribly hurt by having facts pointed out to them. Including the fact that all the right-wing racist scum have crawled out of the woodwork and infested the Leave bandwagon.

As for employment conditions etc, Jeremy Corbyn has just said that employment deregulation is one of the things holding up the current Brexit talks. Take that for what it’s worth, but the Tories would like nothing more than to rip up a load of employment legislation. That’s going to hurt people a hell of a lot more than a few Poles working here.

rosie many people want fairer immigration and based on the skills we need, irespective of whether that person is from a particular trading block.

Take that for what it’s worth, but the Tories would like nothing more than to rip up a load of employment legislation.

This is so true. The Tory gov introduced fees in employment tribunals to remove workers tights through the back door.The number of claims dropped by over 70%. Claimants were required to pay £1,200 to pursue cases such as unfair dismissal and discrimination. The courts saved the denial of these rights by declaring the fees unlawful.

The signs are there!

As for employment conditions etc, Jeremy Corbyn has just said that employment deregulation is one of the things holding up the current Brexit talks.

I don't see how they can resolve that aspect- their positions are polarised.

I posted before that Some people continue to paint Brexit as some kind of revolution of the people for the people. A victory for the peasants. It really isn't.. If you look at the voting records of those who lead it especially on workers' rights..

Here are some quotes from those who led the campaign and still control the balance of power:

Boris Johnson

The weight of employment regulation is now back-breaking [really?]: the collective redundancies directive, the atypical workers directive, the working time directive and a thousand more.”

Disgraced former defence secretary Liam Fox –still in charge of all our Trade

" It is too difficult to hire and fire and too expensive to take on new employees. (ha ha) It is intellectually unsustainable to believe that workplace rights should remain untouchable while output and employment are clearly cyclical.”

Priti Patel (Leave)
If we could just halve the EU social and employment legislation we could deliver a £4.3bn boost to the economy.”

I'm not a Corbyn fan but at least he knows the government’s claim that they will leave workplace rights intact is nonsense. Voters believe that- he doesn't.

The Tory gov tried to block exercise of all employment rights by introducing extortionate employment tribunal fees -which were found to be unlawful.However the govt have said they will try a different fee regime.

The 'promise' to leave all employment rights in national legislation was nonsense as it is combined with power to vary or repeal laws without going through full parliamentary procedures (the Henry VIII powers).

Liam Fox is driven by deregulation of worker's rights.

Previous U.K. governments agreed (and helped draft) basic EU -wide laws to avoid low employee standards. The Basic EU minimums included basic maternity and paternity leave, working time, discrimination , safe working environments, redundancy rights, the right to paid holidays.

The Liam Fox vision of Brexit is to deregulate all this and put profit before peasants. He is still in control of trade and that's an agreed right wing Tory agenda. How can Corbyn and May possibly bridge their gap on this.

calledyoulastnightfromglasgow I don't doubt that some people want fairer immigration but that message has been perverted by the likes of Farage and the far right to justify their racism, it has always been in the power of government to control immigration but from Blair onwards they have chosen not to. I don't buy that many leave voters want selective immigration I think the only thing that will appease them is "to get the foreigners out"

Voters believed promises because they were desperate for changes

We have a huge section of our society that are really struggling and have been for years and they were ignored

It’s not foolish of them to believe it was foolish for them to be ignored for so long

And by those very people who are meant to represent their best interests

It’s not foolish of them to believe it was foolish for them to be ignored for so long

Yes, but the current Government won't bother to do anything about it. Tax cuts for the wealthy - oh yes, support for the poor - forget it!

but who was ignoring them? A lot of the areas worst hit by austerity are the areas that receive the most EU funding and the government has made it clear it won't be replaced by them 1:1.

What did they think they were voting for? Lots of my friends said to me, pre-referendum, "well, don't worry - we're only voting leave because we want to give the government a bloody nose" and it didn't matter what i said or showed them or asked them, they were all saying "Leave won't win, it won't mess your life up"

Well Leave did win. And my life was given a massive shake - and whenever I mentioned it, I heard "yes but leave means leave" from the same people. So I don't k now what to believe, because people in my family, friends i have known for years, don't seem to either be able to keep their story straight, or have lied to my face knowing what a massive shitstorm leave unleashed on me personally.