AIBU to think Brexit has shone light on a really unpleasant racist underbelly allowing it to flourish?

[KennDodd]

I know, I know not all Leavers are racist, really, I do know that. But the (lovely, non racist) Leavers must be able to see this, they really cant be blind to the unsavoury characters and groups promoting Brexit for all their worth. I don't know what can be done about this, if there's any way to put these groups back in the box?

@Doubletrouble 99

"I actually find FOM racist as a poster up thread said. It is completely geared towards predominantly white Christian people. I want everyone in the world to be treated the same in that they should all be measured on their own merits not their country of origin"

Well not quite. FOM is a direct consequence (benefit) of being part of the customs union. Being part of the customs union is a huge benefit to business, and FOM means that people are free to move to where the work is, which is what people have done for hundreds of years. Being able to choose one of 28 different countries is a result of that.

As pp have mentioned, after Brexit there won't be less need of people in particular jobs, and the trade deals that the UK signs with other countries will be tied to visas because that is one of the things that countries want as a result of these kinds of deals. Membership of the EU is just the cover for being part of all sorts of deals.

So in a way, yes, spreading the ability to live/work in the UK over many other countries seems, on the face of it, to be much less racist and allowing more people from different cultures into the country. The reality will be a replacement of your Polish/EU27 workers in the NHS being replaced (probably not 1 for 1) with people from other countries (who may or may not be white/Christian). Because one thing is becoming increasingly clear: the UK depends on foreign workers.

As for uncontrolled immigration from EU countries: just as France & Germany (& probably other countries) had the ability to restrict workers from new EU countries (Bulgaria and Romania prominent here) coming over to work for a few years, so could the UK have done. That they chose not to is probably directly related to the jobs the first Bulgarians and Romanians did when they arrived (hint: probably not overwhelmingly highly paid ones).

One way or another i suspect some kind of Brexit will happen. But I think that anyone who voted Leave based on reducing immigration (several of my friends at least) will be sorely disappointed.

completely geared towards predominantly white Christian people

The closet trading relationship and ancillary working arrangements often start with people on your doorstep surely. I was in France recently it was full of resident Brits. The world has globalised.

It is statistically and logistically more likely that migration and immigration will occur with your neighbours Brits to France, Brits to Ireland and vice versa.

There's a recent African Union initiative to adopt a protocol on the free movement of Africans between African countries. It is driven by an attempt to facilitate growth, encourage trade, and investment between African countries. The proposals will allow students to study in other African countries etc.

There's a new Labour migration system emerging in East Asia and the ASEAN region.

I really don't see why people have a problem with us participating in a European one, as well as some wider mobility too.

With the advent of easier travel the world has globalised. With the advent of empire the world globalised. We need to get over this. We should understand and acknowledge that all over the world people move around. They always have they always will - us included.
The great lamented empire was one of the main drivers for encouraging and accelerating this globalisation and mobility.

Closest not closet.

We didn't have FOM when we first joined the common market, it didn't come in till 1995. I remember my step daughter going to France to Au pair pre 1995 and I certainly don't remember having a problem with visas etc. I remember going to Europe pre 1995 and we had no problems travelling around visa free. We managed to pick all the daffs and all the spuds pre 1995 - how did we manage?
SO I see no reason to have FOM as a stipulation of a trade deal. I would love to see everyone, from where ever they are be able to come here if we needed them.
Of course the Gov. could have restricted movement for people from Romania and Bulgarians but Tony Blair wouldn't have countenanced that for fear of being thought of as being racist and of course they grossly under estimated the amount of people who came.
I have no problem with more people coming here but I would like to see lots more training being offered in the UK for UK residents for professions like Doctors and Nurses. There are loads of potential Drs turned down every year in the UK then we import Drs from other parts of the world - seems daft to me.
I would also like to see an incentive given to employers to initiate more apprenticeships rather than rely on importing ready trained people from other parts of Europe.

I too would have absolutely no problem with the country training up its own health care professionals. The question is, what has stopped them?It's something we could have been doing for the last 60 odd years. What is going to make the current Government have a complete change of mind? It's so much easier not to spend the money, to let other countries pay for the expense of training them.

Peregrina is absolutely right. If you, doubletrouble, are expecting a post brexit government to invest in those levels of training you will be sadly disappointed. Still, go ahead in the hope that it will happen. Expect to queue for any services though and for quite along time. Take sandwiches.

SO I see no reason to have FOM as a stipulation of a trade deal

Unfortunately, the EU do see a reason and insist on FOM being part of a deal.

Double99 - FOM first started in 1992 & it works both ways, i worked in Sweden, friends have worked in Germany.

We could have easily restricted EU workers coming here and not working, just as we could introduce ID cards and a contributory benefits system, both of which would solve a myriad of issues.

We have always imported agri workers and not everyone is suitable to become a Nurse/Doctor (nor would want too) it takes a certain type of person.

I agree on incentives for employers to do more on apprenticeships, i'd suggest tax incentives, halt the cut to corp tax and tie it to training? of course we can do that IN the EU too.

There is obviously something very different about the UK's business model that makes it so attractive to EU workers....... yet we've terrible productivity.

*So I see no reason to have FOM as a stipulation of a trade deal

Unfortunately, the EU do see a reason and insist on FOM being part of a deal.*

Most countries do as well as the EU.
India has been specific that it is what they want, for example.

We managed to pick all the daffs and all the spuds pre 1995 - how did we manage?

Kids did it. I picked fruit before and after school, weekends and all through the summer holidays from when I was 12. For £1 an hour with no breaks and no toilet facilities. There were no adult workers other than the boss. And those who complained were moved to picking strawberries, which is a bastard of a job.

SO I see no reason to have FOM as a stipulation of a trade deal

It allows countries to prosper through 'trading' what they produce best. Some countries produce cars. Some produce services. Others produce a strong and mobile work force.

Well we've well and truly done ourselves over as services was our thing.

Lady of lbc the other day thought services was working in a shop or a cafe . No wonder were in this mess.

I just want to make this point.....immigration is not why there is a housing crisis, NHS crisis or policing crisis.

AUSTERITY and GOVERNMENT POLICY are what have caused these.

At the same time the Govt have cut services for the average working class person to the bone they are REDUCING corporation tax from 20% to 17%.

This equates to £6.3 billion per annum minimum.

Every limited company including huge multinationals, banks, etc will pay less tax. I pay less tax as an owner of a limited company even though I have a perfectly comfortable lifestyle and don't need the money.

They are effectively taking services away from special needs children, the elderly, the vulnerable and giving that money to businesses.

It suits them for those of us who get a raw deal to blame it on immigrants because while we blame it on immigration we've missed who is really to blame.

wheresmymojo

Shifting the blame is a great strategy for ensuring you're never held accountable for breaking the country.

Knife crime is largely caused by austerity.

Interesting report on C4 news right now citing yet more Aran Banks dodginess re Leave.

Arron Banks is very interesting. C4 plan to keep going to discredit him even more, I think. They're catching him out on basic stuff.

He has many weak points, whether he's fully realised it himself or not.

wheresmymojo I just want to make this point.....immigration is not why there is a housing crisis, NHS crisis or policing crisis.
AUSTERITY and GOVERNMENT POLICY are what have caused these.

I would say that uncontrolled immigration is one factor and austerity is another.

Sadly, we can't have generous housing benefit etc unless we stop free movement. Because such things are such a strong pull factor.

The £6.3 billion per annum minimum would go a very long way to providing generous housing benefit. We wouldn't need to think about bringing immigration into it.

Just a reminder, we are constantly told by most Leavers that their vote wasn't an anti-immigrant one.

lucyinthefry
Sadly, we can't have generous housing benefit

Generous housing benefit won't solve anything unless the rent on properties is capped as well.

As pointed out upthread the last time housing benefits were increased so were rents.

Unfortunately, the EU do see a reason and insist on FOM being part of a deal.

India has been specific that it is what they want

Specific enough to say this though;

"India will want the movement of professionals; the movement of doctors, the movement of engineers." ... "both sides will benefit from this exchange.It won't be a one-way street."

Sadly, we can't have generous housing benefit etc unless we stop free movement. Because such things are such a strong pull factor

Lets nail this myth, a woman in our village earns £8.50 per hour and works 4 days a week, she gets £160 HB toward her rent of £670 per month.
She is changing jobs to work 5 days per week and approx £10 per hour (37.5hr) she will lose all her HB, doing this because she wants to come off any form of benefit.... she is Latvian, currently works in social care and has no dependants.

Working benefits have been drastically cut back in recent years.

Our Village school has no spare places because it is full of white english kids, despite all the housing been built, its still the same size as 20 years ago.
the local GP surgery is packed with the english elderly, folk can't afford housing because the wages are shite and even at 150k are unaffordable to most people, so they get sold to those with wealthy parents or as BTL's... its all got sod all to do with FOM.

*Let's nail this myth
*
It just seems that its a myth that is always impossible to nail. Despite the actual facts it's what people want to think. All state Benefits have been pruned hugely anyway.

Looking at the statistics it's native borns who always claimed them not EU nationals. Remember Cameron did change the rules restricting what EU nationals can claim but overwhelmingly they come to work anyway. For example the EU citizens I know are:
• Two consultant NHS doctors.
• A housekeeper and nanny.
• A charity policy person.
• School business manager.
• An accountant .
• Two IT workers..
• Nursery assistant.
• Carer.
• Lawyer
• Student

None of them claim benefits.

The distortion of a handful of benefit scrounging European was promoted by Farage and co. On the overall stats it is fictional propaganda.

You have to look at the national statistics.Overall each EU Migrant contributes approximately £2,300 more each year to UK public finances . This is after NHS funding, benefits and adult social care etc are taken into account. This is compared to other U.K. residents.

For EU13+ migrants their contribution is £3,700 per capita higher each per annum to the public finances than the average UK adult. ( EU13+ are the EU members before 2004 plus EEA members plus Switzerland. )

Non-EEA migrants contributed around £840 less..

jas
I know a number of polish people and many work cash in hand. My friend tells me her brother claims whatever he can whilst he does this. Until the laws were tightened, many claimed benefits for children back home. Their is a system that will be played and that is done. Just maybe not in your circle!!

The effects on wages at the lower end is real and doesn’t take into account the cash in hand wages paid.

FOM works only between countries of similar wages/growth. The decision by Blair on this front is one of the core factors behind Brexit. It’s not racist or indeed xenophobic to worry your small town has changed radically as a result of Eastern European FOM.

I agree that it's not racist to be concerned that wages in discrete areas are artificially lowered by the influx of labour from elsewhere.
But I would argue that these cuts both ways. You can't argue that benefit fraud is not as massive as the Tories have argued and then argue that all EU migrants are here committing low level benefit fraud.

As for cash in hand, pretty sure that went on before FOM and isn't just carried out by EU migrant workers.