AIBU to think Brexit has shone light on a really unpleasant racist underbelly allowing it to flourish?

[KennDodd]

I know, I know not all Leavers are racist, really, I do know that. But the (lovely, non racist) Leavers must be able to see this, they really cant be blind to the unsavoury characters and groups promoting Brexit for all their worth. I don't know what can be done about this, if there's any way to put these groups back in the box?

federal superstate

A contradiction in terms.

Federalism by its very nature devolves power thus diminishing the central power of the state.

if you don't adhere to the narrative of the left, then you are perceived as far right.

I think that's the case the other way too. If you don't adhere to the narrative of the increasingly-more-alarming-right, then you are labelled a snowflake.

If we vote, that vote is with the majority, and that vote is ignored or overturned, then that vote is worthless, and is a fig leave for the elected to hide behind.

It was a binary question on a complex issue. Our elected representatives cannot agree on a way to deliver Brexit, not helped by having a minority government. I believe its called taking back control.

chica

Yep

nor is Remain subject to breaking electoral law

That's what I thought - until I read this today;

Liberal Democrats fined £18,000 for breaches of campaign finance rules

www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/party-and-election-finance-to-keep/liberal-democrats-fined-18,000-for-breaches-of-campaign-finance-rules

They are also being investigated by the IOC;

‘During the course of our investigation, we obtained information that the Liberal Democrats had sold the personal data of its party members to BSiE [Britain Stronger in Europe] for approximately £100,000.'

'In June and July 2018, we served information notices on Open Britain, the successor organisation to BSiE, and the Liberal Democrats, under the DPA1998, to investigate these issues.'

Oh well done clavinova, traduce George Soros in one post and condemn anti-Semitism in the next. And Stephen Yaxley Lennon is pretty vocal. You must have been busy on the day the rest of us saw and heard him screaming NAZI, TRAITOR (thats probably more of that skilful UKIP satire) in Anna Soubry's face as she tried to enter parliament.

Ghost When you say 'framed' do you mean set up? The police didn't intervene for a long time iirc, because they were scared of being accused of being racist. If we cannot talk about the culture surrounding the actions of this community, and their attitudes, then we get nowhere and it happens again.

You must have been busy on the day the rest of us saw and heard him screaming NAZI, TRAITOR

Yes - school holidays.

James O'Brien makes a good point in his book. People don't want free speech. They want free speech without being challenged on what they're saying. So it's more important than ever to pick folk up on their racist views and to not allow it to become acceptable. Let them say what they want, but don't let them not feel ashamed of their views.

scary the far right made a big deal about religion re: Rotherham yet they say nothing about similar offences committed by white men.

Windows The EU doesn't devolve anything once the ratchet of the Acquis takes hold.; that's why the Treaties are written as they are. It's all about gaining power and holding on to it.

Chica I don't think you are called a snowflake; that's quite recent and to me is more about a lack of common sense and having a sense of entitlement than about being right or left.

Ghost Some of our elected representatives have no desire to deliver Brexit, despite having being elected to do so, and having voted to trigger A50. They will try to get a second vote, with a different question, (WA (or permutations thereof) vs Remain) and then will revoke if the answer is the one they want, but they will feel able to say it wasn't them, and will, in Pontius Pilate wash their hands and get back to ignoring the wishes of the electorate in their normal fashion.

James O'Brien

Is that the same James O'Brien who thinks all Leavers are stupid, racist etc, etc...?

Unfortunately, I listened to one of his phone-in programmes recently - if anyone has made me more determined to vote Leave in a second referendum - it's him. Ghastly man.

scary MP's should act in the best interests of their constituents. If they don't think a particular version of Brexit is acceptable then they are right to oppose it. Moreso if you are Lib Dem or SNP.

You should ask members of the ERG/DUP why they didn't back the WA.

I'm not arguing for or against where the power lies in the EU just stating that the term 'federal superstate' makes no sense.

A federated body devolves power. The term federal superstate doesn't make sense. You can argue the EU is federal or you can argue it wishes to be a super state but not both.

James O'Brien makes it clear that he does not consider leave voters stupid.

What he does do is expose the hypocrisy of prominent Brexiteers by playing recordings that contradict their current position.

Clavinova Is that whataboutery?

despite having being elected to do so

Totally incorrect. Our MPs are never elected to deliver a specific policy.

They are elected to do what the individual MP thinks is right for the country.

Never mind, clavinova, don't deprive yourself. I expect it's on YouTube and as ghost says you don't want to appear poorly informed. You're usually so quick to quote.

Newsnight are now doing a whole programme on the rise of the far right. Talking about the bombings twenty years ago. I remember them at the time and I remember talking to a friend after the first bomb and saying that I think sometimes as a society, I think we could do with a shock like this (nobody had been killed or seriously hurt at this point) to remind us how bad racism is and were it leads. I said I think it's much worse and much more dangerous when you have incremental racism from our politicians with popular support. I think this is where we are now. I don't think Nigel Farage would have jumped straight in with a poster like Breaking Point without laying the groundwork first.

I agree KenDodd and thanks for starting this thread. I find it encouraging that on MN there is overall little support for the insidious and odious creep of far right ideology, it's such a vicious thing. I find it profoundly depressing that much of the politics of the past 3 years has been more or less from the Goebbels handbook and that not enough people recognise it. I've missed newsnight, going to catch up.

I said I think it's much worse and much more dangerous when you have incremental racism from our politicians with popular support. I think this is where we are now

I agree

It's one thing ignoring minorities being attacked because let's face it, they're minority and who cares what happens to them right. Unless you're LGBT of course. But when white foreigners are also being attacked then we know it is veering too far.

LadyLindaT Not everyone who voted Leave is a racist, but I bet that every racist voted Leave.
Jeremy Clarkson?

Theresa May and Amber Rudd voted Remain: Windrush? Hostile Environment? Buses with Go Home on them? That's all racist against non-Europeans.

Forgot to say, well done David Lammy on Andrew Marr. Enough with the weasel words and tiptoeing around the 'sensibilities' of the far right, say what it is. He did. Good for him.