Tell me why mumsnet jury?

[Topttumps]

Ok so when I had my dc I couldn’t wait for family to visit. However, over my time on mumsnet I have seen many threads where new mums have upset people (normally in-laws) by a no visitor rule even when home from hospital.
Now this has just happened to my dsis whose only child had a baby about a week ago. The child was premature but stable and is still in hospital. Her son told her that are not allowing visitors.
Now based on previous experience part of me feels that her dil will have definitely have had her mum there. I may of course be wrong on this.
So man jury please help me understand?

"Vagina fresh" - WHAT??

Who even says that about a newborn? On an internet forum or in real life?

Goodness me, there is an awful lot of projection going on on this thread. Some really venomous responses, talking about 'arseholes' and 'getting head out of arses', when there is literally nothing in the OP's posts that suggests the sister is behaving like this.

It is perfectly natural for the grandmother to be eager to see the grandchild. She will be so, so excited and brimming full of love for it, and it is natural that she will feel hurt at being excluded. She has not, however, made scenes or tried to guilt-trip the parents, but has instead just privately turned to her own sister for support.

All this talk of 'power and control' seems peculiarly lacking in empathy to me, as if posters cannot comprehend a grandparent being motivated by love to wish to see their grandchild. I don't doubt that some emotionally damaged/dysfunctional people may act like that. But that is not the majority, though it can feel like that judging by the threads on here.

Do remember, folks, that threads are started by the minority who have problems, not the majority who don't.

My dsis has 3 children. With DC 1 and 3, she was relaxed, happy to have visits from day 1.

DC2 was born very early (9 weeks early) and was in hospital for a while.
For the first 2 weeks the hospital wouldn't allow anyone except parents to visit. After that, DSIS would let very limited people in (she was comfortable with me but not my DH (who has been in her life since she was 14) for example). Even when she came home she refused lots of people who normally she would have welcomed.

She was terrified of germs, of how vulnerable her little baby was, she was traumatised because he almost died and she was too scared to be excited by him.
It was upsetting for the people she wouldn't let in but ultimately it was her choice and it was more important to help her feel safe and settled.

I think one of the main issue is, 'we're not accepting any visitors' although as previously been said the DM has probably been in. For a MIL who is related by blood to this new born to be told no you're not allowed to see it, with no idea of when, this must be hard. If it was 'Mum, its been a bit traumatic could you give us a few days, maybe come around on Saturday to see me and LO, Gertrude may not be up to it just yet though as she's been really poorly. Just an idea of when they will be 'allowed' would help.

It would never have occurred to me to exclude PIL when mine were born even though we were not particularly close, as DH was a parent too so what right did I have (in a good trusting marriage I know there are instances where you would) to deny his parents access to his child? In fact both his parents died quite soon after retirement and I know one of his most treasured photographs is of them holding DD when she was in SCBU.

Actually being in SCBU did help as visitors were limited to 15 minutes so DPs got to see them and then had to leave.

I think it’s a mother’s choice if she’d like visitors or not, you don’t always feel up to it straight after birth and are almost expected to be back to normal but that’s so far from the reality of having a newborn, you are trying to bond, feed and get to know your baby with all this stiff going on with your body I could hardly bloody sit down with ds1.

Ds3 was in NICU for 4/5 days so not long compared to some of your babies but he was initially quite unwell. I was moved to a bay with another mum with a baby in nicu too. She had visitors every visiting time.
Even if They couldn’t see the baby. My sister visited me the first day but couldn’t again as sh had a 9 week old herself.
So as no one could see my baby no one visited me. I sat there for almost a week on my own going down to feed baby etc my kids came but found it hard seeing their brother sick etc and my dp at the time was going between kids me and baby. Neither of his siblings visited until baby came home, one of them insisted on coming the very first hour we got in the house so her kids could hold the baby
Never fecking mind she’d not bothered her backside with me or even thought that his brothers might want to see him home and safe alone etc.

I think mums need to make their choice and people should respect it, if they need time give them time, send a dinner or chocolate for her a card to offer any help once she’s ready. And mums with babies in nicu please visit her if she is willing, even if you can’t see baby, it was a long week for me worrying about my baby my other kids and being stuck on a ward with other newborns etc but I just felt like a was a vessel for this baby and no one gave a crap about me!.

"It’s pretty hard not to if expressing disappointment to your sister is a power play."

No-one has said that. What IS a power play is framing this as "The other side of the family are allowed to see the baby earlier than we are". And there is a bit of that going on.

"Yep. Works both ways"

It sure does. The difference is that you don't often get DILs clamouring to see their MIL's new baby (their sibling-in-law) at the same time as the MIL's mother/daughter.

It's quite simple: the power relation is asymmetric and if you are a nightmare you make it very, very easy for the couple to make the call to shut you out.

Those threads about refusing visitors always make me feel a bit sad. My DH and I have no family at all on this continent. And I don't need sympathy for that because it was our choice to move, but i do roll my eyes when I read about posters being so precious saying that they couldn't possibly have their awful mum or their interfering mil over for an hour a few days after the birth to greet the baby because it's too much for them to deal with. Oh poor you, your parents want to visit your new baby. It must be so terrible.

I'm due to give birth soon and I certainly won't have this "problem" to deal with because all of mine and DH's parents are either too old or too poor to fly over. So there will be no visits at all. No one to annoy us by trying to pop in and see the baby, and no one to intrude on us at the hospital if something goes wrong. Hopefully in a year or two we will be able to fly over and introduce them to the baby, but until then they will never meet their grandchild other than over Skype.

Obviously everyone's situation is different and I know some people have shitty parents who are very difficult to be around, but I'm just throwing in a different perspective here.

My 'exclusion' of family (all family, not just ILs) was for personal preference. I wanted the space to leak, bleed, cry, be semi naked and nap without pressure of people coming to see us (read: the baby). I needed space for us to settle down a bit before the influx of friends & relatives started and I'm eternally glad I did. I understand that some people are closer to their parents than I am and that's fine, I'd never tell someone to keep parents etc away, do what feels comfortable for them and if that's a blanket ban on visitors, so be it. The only people we saw after DC2 was born was the postie and a pizza delivery fella.

If you prefer to have visitors at hospital and then at home, fill your boots, it just didn't feel right for me.

“It's quite simple: the power relation is asymmetric and if you are a nightmare you make it very, very easy for the couple to make the call to shut you out.”
Yep. And very easy for the couple to define “nightmare” too. As this thread amply illustrates.

"Yep. And very easy for the couple to define “nightmare” too."

Well, yes and no. Very easy for them to define - but why would they want to? A supportive in law is a wonderful thing. You're talking about a huge potential of emotional and practical support right there. Occasionally you hear a Mumsnetter who has lovely in laws and the gratitude they express is absolutely glowing. It's genuinely not in their interests to turn this away.

However, the choice becomes easy if someone starts behaving in an upsetting or toxic way. This seems to happen a lot as part of a larger problem, where people haven't been allowed to grow up and become fully independent adults within the context of a parent/child relationship.

Yup that @Bertrand

MILs can’t do right for love nor money and many DILs are difficult and excluding.
Ive seen it amongst my own friends.

I have only boys and am already resigned to being cast in that role no matter how hard I try to get it right.

Obviously some mils are awful. Some people are! And there are threads on here recounting hideous behaviour. But there are also others, like this one, where a woman is characterised thus “
She's upset for purely selfish reasons. She needs to get her head out of her arse sharpish or the relationships will deteriorate further and then she really will be upset!” because she expressed disappointment at not seeing her grandchild to her sister!

@Toptrumps I have also seen this a lot on MN and would like to understand more about this. Especially as the mother of boys! It hasn’t been something I have seen or experienced in RL. I often wonder when I see posts with very fierce views how some of those parents may feel if they are on the receiving end, if they ever find themselves in the same position?

"I am already resigned to being cast in that role no matter how hard I try to get it right."

I absolutely do not think it is an inevitability. I know people who get on brilliantly with their in laws (sometimes even better than with their parents). It is a relationship that can and does work brilliantly.

I got on brilliantly with my ExP's mother. She was such an interesting, gifted, feisty woman. I miss her loads more than I miss my exP. Wish I could swap her for my MIL now!!

I have only boys and am already resigned to being cast in that role no matter how hard I try to get it right

Well then you are a fool and will probably create this yourself with your paranoia. A DIL is not some sort of demon. She is the women that your precious son has decided to spend his life with. If your son is wonderful, then why would he not make a good choice ?

But even if she’s not wonderful and doesnt match your exacting standards of perfection, stamping your little feet and wailing to her or your son about your feelz will get you no where. Treat them both with respect as adults , give them enough space to make their own mistakes and offer support and help when they need it.

The poster saying “ send food” is wiser than mostly of you have given her credit. No babies are not a pay to view. But kindness will be long remembered. Trying to meet THEIR needs without banging on about your rights is the way to go IME.

“A DIL is not some sort of demon.”

Neither is a MIL.

I've known my MIL for 17 years and I love her to bits, she's one of my favourite people. She is of course just as much a grandmother to my DD as my mum is, and one of my favourite memories of the day DD was born was MIL's utter delight when I said of course she could hold her new granddaughter.

But she's not my mum. I felt a bit weird about feeding around her and would've been mortified to move on the bed and realise I'd leaked or something.

I think the first few days (and longer if the baby is ill) need to be about what the mum needs, primarily. Yes of course the dad will want his parents to meet the baby but if the mum just isn't up to visitors then they have a choice to make.

Once everyone's home and settled, feeding established etc, it's a different thing and of course a supportive grandparent shouldn't expect to be sidelined.

Btw OP, I hope your sister is asking after her DIL in messages and not just the baby.

"Trying to meet THEIR needs without banging on about your rights is the way to go IME."

EXACTLY!

It's the 'circles of grief' thing, isn't it - the same is true in any emotional/practical crisis. The person at the centre of it comes first - their needs are paramount. Everyone else is in concentric rings outwards, and their attention should be focused inwards, to do whatever is helpful. It's not the time to jockey for power or position or to worry about 'who gets in first'. However, kindness and unselfish regard for others are a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy: chances are that people who do this already will be the ones who get called on anyway by all who know them who are in need of a hand-hold.

“Trying to meet THEIR needs without banging on about your rights is the way to go IME."

And talking to your sister is “banging on about your rights?”

The poster saying “ send food” is wiser than mostly of you have given her credit. No babies are not a pay to view. But kindness will be long remembered. Trying to meet THEIR needs without banging on about your rights is the way to go IME.

Absolutely. I think it's a way of signalling to the couple "I'm here to support you", especially if relations have been a bit rocky in the past. Don't send so much you're overbearing, just to show you're also thinking of the DIL as well as the baby.

Framing it as a competition (who got to see the baby first) is unhelpful and possibly a little unhealthy. I'm not saying this woman has been screamingly selfish to raise it with her sister. But the way that we frame things does influence how we see them - and how we imagine our own agency in a situation.

I think it's natural to feel a bit hurt and left out - but those feelings are best channeled into doing something to build a stronger relationship in future, like cooking up a load of frozen readymeals for when the baby is home, reading up on premie babies and anticipating needs, and generally being there as a positive, supportive presence as needed.

@BertrandRussell

It's relevant because it shows attitudes of families to preemie babies. They think it's the same as when they or other family members have full term babies. A preemie is far more at risk of infection and in the NNICU the advice is to limit visitors. And parents are far more stressed so avoiding visits, especially where relationships are fraught is a good idea too.

In our six weeks in NNICU we frequently saw visitors who behaved in ways that put babies at risk and staff had to step in. And DH's husband were generally really put out when we restricted visitors and visits for her first couple of months home. They barely see DD now, except MIL and 9 years on, still bleat about the fact we didn't invite them all en masse the weekend we got home. Their problem not mine.

To the OP's point that DIL would have had her mum there, of course she would. Mum is there to support her daughter, which she will really need at this difficult time.

Also, there is rarely such a thing as a "stable" preemie. It can vary wildly every day, even for the ones who are generally doing well.

The poster saying “ send food” is wiser than mostly of you have given her credit.

Especially for parents who spend whole days at hospital. We existed on hospital canteen sandwiches and takeaway for the first week. Then mum went to my house and batch cooked things and put them in our freezer. Given I was still recovering from a c-section and severe blood loss, eating well really helped but we couldn't have cooked ourselves.

I allowed visitors and was told after visitors every day for two weeks when I wanted A day off I shouldn’t have more kids because that’s part of it. Safe to say next time I’m not being so accepting made my pnd worse

My MIL was less of a nightmare than my mother.

As a friend, I don't visit another friend with a baby until at least a week has passed. Because they'll have enough with the new baby and relatives already.

Even as a grandmother, I wouldn't even hint at visiting a pre-term baby in hospital. I'd wait until I was invited or the baby got out.
I think it's selfish otherwise. Such visits are purely for our own satisfaction. Babies in hospital need their parents around, not grandparents. And it should be about the baby's needs, not ours.