To ask why some mum's don't care about feminism?

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I have a daughter. I want her to have the same rights as her brother, the same opportunities, the same life experiences.
I try not to bore but I think that any mum who has a daughter should be interested in feminist issues, if not for herself. Yet I still feel that not enough people give a shit.
I post on another group where mum's dissect every part of the parenting experience. We're talking thread after thread of car seats, which sling to buy, how to talk a toddler out of a tantrum without using negative language. Yet when I posted about how we can encourage girls to get into STEM I got no response. Does anyone care? I feel like I get nowhere when I try to get the debate going about how we should give our daughters the best toolkits to go off there and be amazing. In real life too, I sometimes feel people glaze over when I talk about equal rights, like it doesn't effect them. You are a woman, you should care!!

Well my original answer to your thread was that DD is 2.5 so we are more on the "its cool to like dinosaurs and ballerinas or whatever you want" rather than worrying about STEM role models at this point.

Your question wasn't that STEM based though was it? It was about how to make sure our daughters are just as confident and our sons. Which is a fair point. And something I still don't know the answer too, I want to make sure my daughter is kind but not too kind, confident but not too confident IYSWIM.

Different people care about different things, I suppose. Some “Mum’s” don’t care about punctuation.

Some people won't know what you mean by "STEM". So talk to them about stuff they do know: toys and books.

Nothing gets my back up more than the accusation that some women don't do feminism right.

I absolutely agree with this. Its narrow minded and damaging to feminism.

Well perhaps because there a loads of issues to care about - climate, the NHS, education, brexit, and issues which more directly impact every family (what's been happening at school this week, discussions with teachers, working hours, juggling childcare, dealing with sick kids etc...)

While I am interested in girls studying stem/steam, it's not top of my priority list right now. I support your cause, but we all have different things that we r passionate about and are pressing for us. For me, stem/steam is further down the list of concerns than it is for you. And that's ok!

Hi Guyliner!
That's not what I meant and you knew that.

FYI you're one of the feminists who ruins feminism.

Have lovely day.

Is your dd little? I am a feminist but don’t go on about it just assume girls and boys equal. Both my dds 10 and 12 have found it on their own they buy feminist books with their pocket money. If dd2 has a free choice for projects etc the have a slant (women in the stone age was her history choice). Dd2 in particular is very alert she was outraged about the World Cup and the fact it was all men. She turns programs off if all men and calls out sexism in both directions at school. Way bolder than I ever was

Never seen such wilful misinterpretation of a post before.

All of those posters saying their girls can be anything they want to be are being very naive or deliberately obtuse. Maybe they can be what they want to be but it won't be an easy ride for them unless it's in a historically 'female role'. They may get there but they will likely have to work harder than the men, take a lot more flak than then men and then get paid less or overlooked in career progress - especially if they dare to have children.

For me, it’s about girls having a choice. That doesn’t mean pushing them into STEM or anything else, but it means if they want to do it they should be able to do so without limits and limitations- their gender should not hold them back. I will be encouraging my daughter to work hard and give herself choices in life.

I sometimes think we are in danger of over egging the push for girls into STEM, are we going to end up with groups of girls/women who feel they have let the female side down if they don’t go down this route? That’s not what we should be doing.

Added to all this there are people still telling anyone who'll listen that women have an innate feeling that makes them automatically choose "lady careers" like nursing and caring. They are just not built for architecture or science.

And men, by dint of their macho male feelings, are predestined to go work down mines on on oil rigs because they yearn for danger.

It's all in the genes, you see.

(There's one all over some current threads on MN right now)

There are different factors that could be com in ng into play. One thing, not everyone who believes in equality, encouraging STEM etc wants to be associated with the label of feminism these days, so if (for instance) you use the two terms interchangeably in a post you might only get a subset of the potentially interested parties involved.

I apologise I should have included apprenticeships in my post. I am aware of the apprenticeships especially London Transport for engineering but people who have not had a great education or who had limited options are sometimes led to believe these are not options for them. My job involves working with vulnerable young adults and the amount that genuinly believe they cannot do achieve a levels or an apprenticeship or go to University or anything else is staggering. However in the area I live there are not many career opportunities within science or engineering and the thought of travelling and the costs incurred put some people off. I don't think STEM show be the area to push towards. By all means teach kids they can do anything but that also includes other areas not covered by STEM

See I don't agree with "pushing" anyone to do anything, boy or girl. I still think the home is a more powerful influence than society, when it comes to children. You shouldn't have to ram feminism down their throats, you should display it by your actions. My DC saw me cleaning the house, but they also saw me doing DIY and decorating. Me and my DD used to go and watch F1 races together, while my DS stayed home as he wasn't into it at all. I can honestly say I never treated them differently because of their gender.

I just always taught my kids to go for want they want in life, without specifying what I thought that should be! My DD has dyscalculia anyway so she's always struggled with maths.

As it turns out my DS is now a nursery teacher abroad, and loves it. My DD is now very alternative and makes music and paints. They are both happy, that's all I care about.

What’s that saying “you can’t be what you can’t see”.
Much less likely to go for a job if you’ve never seen anyone “like you” doing that role, whether that refers to sex, race, disability. Role models are very important.

I was brought up believing that there was basic equality and we could achieve anything, but that there were a few areas where antiquated attitudes might mean we'd need to fight a bit harder. I became senior and well paid in a traditionally male field. A few times people tried to underpay me, I moved on to other jobs or asked
for more. A few times I came across overtly sexist behaviour, I called it out with a joke and those individuals never spoke down to me again. Other minor issues I've just ignored as not worth my time. I worry that those who imprint on their kids a view that there is no equality are unconsciously creating issues. Seeing a barrier before you reach it is off-putting and makes you slow down, but smash into it unconsciously and you'll more likely drive it open. Teach your girls to unconsciously assume they can do anything they want by never showing them a barrier. Then teach them strategies for handling barriers in the way that everyone can; that way they'll genuinely laugh when a man acts as though they don't belong in the meeting room and call him out on it so he will look like a fool. Finally, teach all your children how to estimate their worth from salary calculators and job searches, then how to make sure they are always paid accordingly.

I'm a feminist and I'll make sure my DS is a feminist, but you'll never find me hunting for specific role models to bring up and the concept seems unnecessarily restrictive to me. If a girl has the aptitide to follow in Turing's footsteps then let him be her role model, girls certainly don't need to be restricted to paths trodden by women before them. By all means teach them to respect the sacrifices of feminists before them, but teach fallibility too; for example Emmeline Pankhurst fought for women's voting rights and then got angry when their youngest two girls wanted to support different political parties; how ironic that even the best of us can be so blind. When it harms nobody, it's important to respect the freedom of other independent women to think differently than ourselves as well as fighting inequality. Just a thought for the OP in this critical thread about those of us who aren't doing feminism correctly in her mind. In fact, it's an important point for everyone in these politically polarised times, but that's a separate thread.

I do like some of the modern stories for girls, my friend's kids have some great ones e.g. where the girl meets various princes but decides she'll go travelling instead. I also remember reading a lot of "boys" books as a kid. So if you want extra ideas OP, maybe think about the fictional reading material as well as factual.

MRex I'd not thought of the infallible bit before and that's a good point as reality is there are people/groups out there who will look for any contradictions and use them to attack whatever your feminism is. It's made me think of the recent spotlight on some of Posie's activities and how much she was questioned for her allegiances when she went to America earlier this year. In a nutshell if we choose a "feminist " ally we must agree with every single opinion they have on every single thing.
I don't think we can all say that about our friends and family, never mind a feminist who may inspire us. It's good to understand the whole picture.

OP it's not STEM specific but there is quite a nice book you could read with DD (apologies I didn't see her age?) called "Fantastically Great Women Who Changed The World" by Kate Pankhurst. Good examples of how women have shaped where we are now.

People all have interest in different things. Some are passionate about the environment, some about animal rights, some about gun laws, some about the rich/poor inequality, other about correct use of apostrophes!

Telling people that they should be more interested in what you think is a priority won’t always be successful with everyone.

I have both sons and daughters and don’t feel the need to push feminism, they all know they can do whatever they want, no matter what sex they are. My dd and a lot of her friends happen to be doing maths and sciences but that is because that is what they enjoy and want to do, they certainly don’t think there are any careers they can or can’t go in to just because of their sex.

You see Errol that’s my own experience

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If one person hasn't experienced a bad thing happening, but another person has experienced that bad thing happening ... it means that bad thing happens. In the case of sexism towards children's aspirations, far less than in previous centuries, obviously. But it still happens, and if not rebutted can lead to potential being stymied. That applies to both sexes, and across all fields not just 'girls and STEM'.

Your original point is very confused OP.

I am bringing up my daughter to be independent and fearless and to be the very best that she can be. Of course she is aware of everyday sexism and I try to ensure that she is as equipped as possible to challenge it.

What she chooses to study is entirely up to her though. If she happens to be a talented linguist or musician should I push her in to STEM subjects instead to prove my credentials as a feminist?

I fear you may be talking nonsense which is possibly why other parents are no engaging with you.

Thank you for correcting me.

I talk about feminism to my kids. It's not enough that I am a role model only.

What she chooses to study is entirely up to her though. If she happens to be a talented linguist or musician should I push her in to STEM subjects instead to prove my credentials as a feminist?

Has anyone said that, or anything remotely like that? Of course not.

And also, even if a girl is talented at STEM subjects but prefers a different path, that's fine. Just so long as it's her choice.

There's a lot of straw (wo)men on this thread.

Of course we should be raising all our kids to be feminists what ever gender however the boys are not going to have the same struggles as the girls out in the wider world in terms of sexism, sexual assault, job opportunities, unequal pay etc etc. So yes I do tend to lay it on more thickly with the girls

For exactly these reasons I lay it on more thickly with boys Vul - I think it’s on men to stop a lot of this shit.

Completely agree that we have to talk about this stuff explicitly, that being a role model isn’t enough.

Has anyone said that, or anything remotely like that? Of course not.

Apologies if that is not what is being said. It is what I understood from the opening post.
My point (possibly badly made) is that I am not prepared to see my daughter's choices influenced by anyone. She chooses her options this year and she is mature and intelligent enough to do that for herself. I will not encourage her towards STEM subject any more than anything else. I want her to be successful in whatever it is that suits her.

@BuzzPeakWankBobbly Asian and African women don't share these genes.

In developing countries STEM subjects and careers that arise from them are seen as a way out of poverty. However there is still sexism in within the roles within industries women take. It is actually worth talking to women who have worked in those countries and then western countries on the differences in their job.

I work in a STEM career. It isn't poorly paid thanks to being directed by one of my brothers' into it. I actually have been helped by a couple of men in my career - one dealt with sexism in one project I worked on, and another told me over the years what jobs I should apply for. The latter was helping me and another guy at the same time but the guy decide he knew better.