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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Relative receiving benefits although able to work

167 replies

Radiator23 · 13/04/2019 16:01

Hi, I hope someone can help with a crisis of conscience and also practical advice.

A relative receives benefits and lives in a council flat (just her) in a village near my family and does not work. About 25 years ago she had mental health problems and was very ill. Since then she has had all the help the NHS and DWP have to offer and for several years (I’d say about 10) has certainly been well enough to do some work, even part time in a shop or something.

She does no volunteering, gets subsidised travel, arts and music classes, gym membership, has some sort of support worker to show her life skills (although she can manage perfectly well, she is 45 and in excellent physical health).

She can drive but chooses not to, and is constantly asking other family members to give her lifts, take her to family events, generally go out of our way, as well as also being unwilling to solve her own minor home problems, eg. calling a repairman, connecting TV to broadband. She joins her parents on holiday several times a year - they pay for everything.

She has quite a nice life really (sorry this is probably sounding a bit bitter). Other adult family members have had their own health problems over the years but still worked when able. My view is you pay into the system when you can and take when you really need to. Everyone is getting a bit fed up with this person but no-one will say anything to her. It makes family get-togethers very awkward.

I keep reading about how awful those work assessments are and wonder how on earth she can still be receiving benefits when people who are physically disabled and suffering life limiting illnesses are being told they are fit for work. However I have no direct experience of the system so perhaps there is something I don’t understand.

Any advice on either dealing with this, approaching the relevant agency, or tackling it with her, or just learning not to care would be really helpful. I don’t think this counts as benefit fraud, but I have seen her play up the severity of her situation when questioned on it by others so I would not put it past her to do the same with external organisations. I think she does it to defend her lifestyle but cannot see that doing some work would help her as well as be the right thing to do by society.

OP posts:
IfOnlyOurEyesSawSouls · 13/04/2019 23:46

You can receive PIP and work.

When will the ignorance end 😱

JanMeyer · 14/04/2019 00:01

The responses on here are vile. No one has any idea if the ops claim that her relative is playing up is true or not. We simply don’t know and I don’t see the need for all the venom.

No, what's vile is a person deciding they know better than medical professionals, the DWP and disability "assessors" that a person really is sick or disabled. And your point about not knowing is almost too ironic for words, because that's exactly the damn point isn't it? I mean the OP has no fucking clue (like half of the people who start these threads) that the person in question is "faking it."
Half the time they don't even actually know what benefits their relative is claiming, or even know the difference between ESA and PIP. And so many of them seem to have no clue whatsoever that you can a) claim PIP and work part time or full time, and b) you can actually work a few hours a week whilst claiming ESA under the permitted work scheme.

Madein1995 · 14/04/2019 00:38

S1 good luck😀 it is in an unfair system but at least your child had you. If you don't mind, I'm going to give you some advice that you hopefully won't need.

Firstly, strike the balance between nice and firm. It always pays to be Polite. That said don't be fobbed off. If you think someone is giving you the wrong information ask to speak to the supervisor. All calls are recorded

Ask for a copy of the AP report as soon after the assessment as possible. It's mainly a precaution but a good one to have as recons go quickly. Once received, go through it with a pen and put a star next to every point you disagree with. Then find evidence to back it up. Eg assessor says 'x displayed no sign of pain while walking to room'. Get hold of a copy of strong medication for knee pain prescription to dispute it. It doesn't matter if you've already sent it, get it again. This is just a precaution at this stage but good to have it ready.

If you need a reconsideration, ring up. Unsure if you're an appointee but if not have DC past security and put you on. Request the recon, and tell them you will be sending more evidence. You usually have 4 weeks but post can be slow. Ask the telephony agent to put notes over the system (in notes and on the reconsideration task itself) telling the CM you will be sending evidence and do not decide until it's all in. Case managers are generally nice and if this is done, will wait

Ringing is essential. New starters are put on processing and there's little information on how to do a recon so some just leave it 🙄 also when letters come in they get labelled. There's no reconsideration label. Some people see a further evidence task and shut it down without any further action. Besides which they're so full with work it takes weeks to do tasks. You. Only have 4wks to request a recon. If it's their fault for being slow they will still put it on but that's still weeks of waiting you don't need.

Evidence. You really do have to spell it out. Even if it's the same stuff, send it anyway. If you don't, the decision won't change. Make sure you match it up to the points you disagree with, and keep photocopies at home. The more the better, recent is better of course. You could write yourself but it won't be considered in the same light as the evidence.

With an appeal, and hopefully it won't get that far. You can do it online but I always advise at least ringing to talk to an agent if only to get the phone numbers. There are very strict deadlines so it's best to move quickly. I also always advised ringing HMCTS to give them a heads up when you're sending information in. Post can be problematic and by giving a heads up you're better off. Make sure you get the phone numbers for HMCTS. They're better placed to update you throughout. It is a lengthy process, I'm afraid. After the decisions made, if in your favour, you have 4 weeks for the DWP to contest it. They never do, but they use it to get stuff sorted. As soon as you hear the outcome from HMCTS, ring DWP Nd do payability questions. It won't speed things up but it will stop delays

If you're unhappy with the service youve been given, complain. If a staff member is rude, complain. Team leaders have to take complaints, and the DWP managers take them very seriously. If you have a complaint about an assessor you raise it with them. The DWP staff can't do anything (much to our displeasure) and you have to ring them or email. DWP can give their details though. Do not accept shoddy service. The staff can't change the rules, true. But they can understand that the process is difficult and even if they are giving bad news, they can bloody be polite whilst doing so.

Anything you ask staff to make a note of, have them read back to you. Especially reasons for not attending an appointment.

Be prepared for a long wait. I don't know how it is now, bit when I left for new claims it was 8 weeks for a decision and longer for award reviews. It's meant to be four. There's also long waiting times for assessments.

I'm sorry for the essay, and I'm aware all my advice is bleak and possibly worrying you. There are good outcomes, some people get lucky and a fair go of it. I just know from experience that telephony agents differ in attitudes and experience and want to ensure you have the best advice I can give.

Also it really isn't all bad news. And not all staff are bad. I for one genuinely cared. I got abuse sometimes and that wasn't nice. But I had some lovely calls and really helped some people. I once helped a man who called me in a panic from the side of the road as his pip hadn't gone in. It wasn't due until tomorrow but his ESA should have gone on and he panicked. I gave him ESA phone number and called him 2hrs later to check he'd gotten home ok (during my lunch).

The system is horrible and it's hard giving bad news. I really felt for some people. But I used to think I was doing good. It was a bad system, but I always thought that by trying my best and giving the best advice I could possibly give, I was helping people in what's probably one of the most difficult times of their life.

Again sorry for the essay and for the doom and gloom. It's probably of no help to you. But I just wanted to give you the best info I could. I don't work in pip and couldn't access your case regardless, bit if you do have any questions I am more than willing to give general advice like above. Just PM me.

Batsypatsy · 14/04/2019 00:42

Just leave her alone. What do you know about her mental health?!

Madein1995 · 14/04/2019 00:51

zsa I don't think the replies are vile. I think many people have personal experience of pip and people assuming it's all sunshine and buckets of money, annoy them as they undermine their experiences.

And no, I'm not someone who says that benefit fraud shouldn't be reported. It should. Living together, being a carer yet not providing care, claiming for a child that's been removed from your care etc, are all examples of fraud. I'm sure there are some cases (on the old DLA) that are fraudulent too. But that is a tiny amount. I think last year the majority of fraud convictions was for working in receipt. Closely followed by living together.

That tiny amount pales in comparison with the public's view of disability, the attitudes towards people with hidden disabilities and the plain ignorance. It pales even further when you consider the impact such attitudes have on vulnerable people's daily life

AlunWynsKnee · 14/04/2019 00:57

Madein1995 it's incredibly useful to have a view from the inside, however grim. I hope you left for a job that your conscience deserves Flowers

S1naidSucks · 14/04/2019 01:08

Madein1995

That’s fantastic, thank you. I’ve saved that, so I can read over it if stuck.

💐

WhyTho · 14/04/2019 01:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RSAcre · 14/04/2019 01:49

She can drive but chooses not to

Last time - & I sincerely hope it IS the last time - I was terribly unwell, I could drive too. I'd been driving for 30 years, & am pretty competent (not shallow boast - so said racing car instructor).

But guess what? Someone with C-PTSD/PTSD/incipient psychotic break isn't terribly safe behind the wheel. So I asked my neighbour to take my car keys away. Yes you can be mentally unwell but still aware & sensible of what is happening to you.

You have no idea what is wrong with your relative, what might trigger her illness to any danger point, or how safe she feels driving a car - because you are not her shrink. You're not anyone's shrink, so really its not up to you to judge.

Or would you prefer she causes an accident?
What harm is she doing you?
Can you not instead focus on your good fortune in your own mental health & ability to go to work, & celebrate your life instead of denigrating another's?

RSAcre · 14/04/2019 01:57

@LovelyJubbly67

You are being illogical.
sorry you are being flamed OP. for what it's worth, I think YANBU at all. I don't know in this particular case whether your relative is abusing the benefits system

As you so rightly say - you DON'T know anything about the relative.
But then you switch tack & state that it's not unreaonable to judge the relative on zero evidence.

It's woolly, spiteful thinking like that which makes life even harder for people managing invisible illnesses. Please educate yourself: negative, incoherent statements like yours above are really unhelpful.

RSAcre · 14/04/2019 02:22

@zsazsajuju

The responses on here are vile. No one has any idea if the ops claim that her relative is playing up is true or not. We simply don’t know and I don’t see the need for all the venom.
What venom? The vast majority of posters have simply been pointing out how hugely unlikely it is that the myriad professionals concerned with the relative have been in some way hoodwinked.

I often feel like if they had to work it would be helpful as the benefits allow them to spend all day drinking.
Oh what utter tosh. I have a JOB, & it wouldn't fund all day drinking. Have you any idea at all of how very little money PIP recipients survive on?

Working would improve her self confidence and help her socially.
Wow. Just - wow. Andyou know that for a fact because ... what? You know the woman? You know better than her medical team?

It’s not clear cut and there are no simple answers but I do feel that the benefits are a cycle she is stuck in.
WTF would you know about it? Who are you to set your own 'feeling' against that of a system that is notoriously difficult to access, setting your judgement over the healthcare professionals responsible for the case?

auntykara · 14/04/2019 03:17

Reporting her would be getting her support and money she's currently entitled to taken away... right?
No matter the degree of her physical health, you said she has mental health health problems.

What do you think that would do for her mental health, to have her routine and income suddenly changed?
Not sure why anyone would want to pull the rug from underneath their own relative Confused
Would you and your other 'concerned' relatives prefer her to be visibly suffering to be deemed worthy of support?

jemihap · 14/04/2019 04:07

The fact is there are people abusing the disability benefits system, especially where mental health is concerned, I know of someone receiving PIP for ''depression'' and ''anxiety'' who has numerous ''lads holidays'' a year and can be found shopping and clubbing every weekend.

FenellaVelour · 14/04/2019 04:57

Don’t report, OP. I’m not going to repeat the things other posters have said, though I wholeheartedly agree with them. But do not report, you could destroy her.

Someone decided to anonymously report my lovely dad a few years back, my dad who has been increasingly physically disabled over the past 35 years, with numerous operations and pain 24/7, to the point he can now not walk far at all. Yet someone still reported him. Only they didn’t do it via the DWP, they rang the fucking Sun fraudster hotline. So my dad, in his seventies, had a fucking scumbag journalist on his doorstep taking photos of him. I have never been so incandescent with rage.

And my dad has obvious physical disabilities. It must be even tougher if the disability is hidden. Nobody knows what it’s like to live in someone else’s shoes. Everyone has a battle to fight. Be kind, always.

DeloresJaneUmbridge · 14/04/2019 08:40

Again I am going to repeat PIP is NOT and easy benefit to claim.

My son’s form ran to over 50 pages by the time I’d included OT reports, Speech and Language Reports, Consultant letters and stuff from his EHCP.

In addition to this I had to spell out under each criteria how he managed various daily activities.

He was awarded Enhanced Care and Mobility for 5 years. If you saw him in the street with me you’d have no idea he has any disability and I am fully expecting people to mutter “why does he get mobility...he can walk?” when they have no idea of his cognitive abilities and his response to stressful situations.

And yes....I absolutely WILL be using the Mobility component to lease a shiny new car. My one is old and battered, the thought of trouble free motoring when I take him to and from college from September is too good to ignore.

DeloresJaneUmbridge · 14/04/2019 08:44

And yes....disability can change and improve.

My son is autistic with learning difficulties so at 16 is very much a child in a man’s body.

Who knows how much his brain will develop and mature over the next 5-10 years. This is why PIP is not awarded for life and regularly reviewed. My hope long term is that my DS will not need it at all because he will cope with life. But by God if he doesn’t manage Inwill he behind him making sure he gets what he is entitled to.

lovemylkids43 · 14/04/2019 08:48

She may be doing permitted work.. if she receives esa you can work 16 hours per week and earn up to £125 per week .. also if she receives pip that's not means Tested ... the thing is mental health can fluctuate so if she is working now it may be helping her and this is why they have permitted work as it's a safety net ...

I wouldn't be bitter or compare to others as it's pointless ...just crack on with your own life and if others in your family are getting the benefits they are suppose to be getting they need to seek help in securing them ...

It is what it is

Home77 · 14/04/2019 09:03

Horrible, I had this from a friend who has MS but thinks mental health is not real Hmm- she has a real chip on her shoulder about it

headinhands · 14/04/2019 09:06

I'm putting money on this being your sil. You clearly have no idea about MH and PIP. Lucky for you.

UniversalAunt · 14/04/2019 09:29

Flowers @Madein1995

User457990033gYpovd7 · 14/04/2019 09:31

@Madein1995
Thank you for posting such helpful advice. I'm sure it will help a lot of people and has helped me to understand some of the things going on behind the process.

For instance, DWP say not to send in any evidence previously sent but you say to send info even if sent before. I actually ignored their advice and did this and had family member's points increased on MR then had mobility element re-instated at court tribunal.

Also good to know they have no label for the Reconsiderations. I'm absolutely certain an Occ Therapist's letter was totally ignored at MR stage despite DWP being told it was on the way. (Very slightly late due to Bank Holiday).

Madein1995 · 14/04/2019 10:25

jemi you have no idea how many allegations say the exact same thing. It's basically that their relative can afford and is able to go on holiday, and they're jealous and resent that. Some professionals advise getting away from it all actually. When I was having a really tough time with mam which was damaging my MH, a night by the seaside in a premier Inn helped. If just to get a peaceful nights sleep. Also even the most ill people can go on holiday. Some severely ill people take carers and oxygen tanks etc abroad.

'drinking, clubbing, shopping' always makes me laugh. How would a disability stop everyone doing that? Actually socialising rather than staying at home all the the might be part of their treatment. They might be forcing themselves to go, to put on a brave face. Are you aware how many people self medicate with drugs or alcohol?

How would anxiety and depression stop someone going out ever? There are good and bad times, and why in the good periods, someone be confined? It's a sign they might be improving.

Maybe your relative is faking, I don't know. But what's sad is the fact that many people who are ill feel they cannot go shopping or on. A night out (even their sisters hen do and by not going they'd cause upset) because of the attitudes shown on this thread.

Thank you for your kind words 😀 my advice/ info isn't much but I hope it will help people. I currently work in fraud (made permanent) so feel even more guilty than when I was doing pip! But I've got a new job lined up as a probation Practitioner. It means moving away which I can't wait to do, and involves helping offenders stop reoffending. Finding them accomodation, access to benefit etc. I'm really looking forward to it. It will be challenging I know but I'll be helping people

User457990033gYpovd7 · 14/04/2019 10:46

@JanMeyer

"But the main reason I think this thread is probably bullshit is because of their claim their relative has a support worker and all sorts of subsidised classes."

I have a family member with a severe MH issue. They have a weekly support worker and have, at various times, been provided with cookery classes to try and help them with daily functioning. The MH team and their council also offered reduced price gym membership especially for those with MH issues.

The MH team have now, after a good few years of severe MH issues, been told a Care Plan Package might be available whereby a Support Worker would come in 5 days per week for 2-3 hours to help encourage them to undertake all the usual daily functioning tasks. They have also been asked about anything they can help to do with establishing hobbies and have offered to go to football playing or rambling clubs with them if they want this. So, I do believe that aspect of the OP's post.

I think it probably depends upon the severity, and duration of the mental health issues and the effects it has on the life of the sufferer. I also think you may have to have a Care Plan Package to access these things.

longwayoff · 14/04/2019 10:58

How to deal with it? Start by minding your own business and attending to your own concerns. By all means make your opinions made to any professionals involved, I'm sure they'll be glad to have the benefit of your unskilled advice on how to carry out the assessments required.

LadyRannaldini · 14/04/2019 11:02

One person's idea of fitness to work is different from someone else's. I know from experience that I went to work with illness where others took time of with the same thing. People get out of the habit of working and after so many years of being supported and cushioned by the state it would be a hard habit to break.

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