To ask what Leavers are still hoping for from Brexit

[Bearbehind]

So we’ve failed twice to actually leave the EU on the dates specified which has hopefully proved that we will never leave without a deal.

Therefore the only option is to leave with a worse deal, or just give the whole thing up as a bad idea.

What do Leavers think can be salvaged from this epic mess?

Correct me if I’m wrong there’s no rule that says we can’t keave without a deal

Indeed - in fact it is the default position.

So why didn’t we leave without a deal on 29th March or 12th April?

Why hasn’t the fact we didn’t, convinced you that it will never happen?

We didn’t because May is trying to get a deal which can pass. Parliament are actually voting down everything as the vast majority want to remain.
If there’s a new Tory PM as being suggested then no deal is more likely as they could just decline the extension

If it comes to parliamentary votes which are set to be implicated we could end up with anything. Given Corbyn is a Brexiteer I’m hopeful they’ll come up with a compromise as neither want to remain

@Clavinova

A quote from the DM that is hysterical and slightly nonsensical 

I need to lie down I'm in shock.

lljkk perhaps we believed we entered The Age of Reason several hundred years ago but we were just kidding ourselves.

Bearbehind the best response I've seen is the narrative of fighting back to reclaim the U.K. from the claws of the right. We are being overrun by ideas that are country to U.K. values. We believe in liberalism, reason and the rule of law. Brexit arguments are tenets of faith and that is not very 'British'.

We didn’t because May is trying to get a deal which can pass

So what happened to ‘no deal is better than a bad deal’?

Why do you still have any faith in anything she says?

I have no issue with May and will continue to vote for her. She isn’t the problem

So you’re not going to answer the question about why TM has completely u-turned on ‘no deal is better than a bad deal’ then.

Bearbehind Do you understand that some Scots want to leave the UK? Can you see why? If you can manage that then you might be able to understand why some Brits want to leave the EU. There are even some Scots that want to leave the EU. Mind blowing!

And of course it is possible. It might take a while but never mind. Brussels wasn't left in a day as we may say one day.

We didn’t because May is trying to get a deal which can pass. Parliament are actually voting down everything as the vast majority want to remain.

What vast majority?
43% of MPs voted for No (Withdrawal) Deal very recently.
A lot of other MPs support (accept) Brexit but can't support No Withdrawal arrangement as part of path to get to Brexit.
Is 57% = vast majority?

The opinion polls suggest that in a new Referendum, Remain would win 55% to 45%. Is 55% a vast majority?

Brexit and the Indyref are very similar in that the side wanting to leave were both largely based on emotion rather than reality.

Having said that, there is now a much more rational argument for Indyref since Scotland could potentially eventually rejoin the EU on it’s own.

And historically England have always treated Scotland like shit so there’s much more ‘emotion’ to build on.

The EU really hasn’t done that much that has ever affected Joe Bloggs in the UK - most Leavers can’t name a single thing that has actually affected them.

@lucyinthefry people can understand that others want to leave the EU. What I fail to understand is how a decision of such magnitude with such long lasting ramifications can be made on feelz.

The decision will impact negatively on the economy leaving people poorer. Actual not enough food poverty. Jobs will be lost and people will suffer and all this will happen to make some people 'feel' better.

I cannot get my head round this. During a GE I read the manifestos of the parties I disagree with and I don't like but I can understand their points. Most Brexit arguments are not even arguments they are abstract nouns used to convey emotions.

Can you understand the feelz in Scotland?

The SNP have put forward fully costed plans.

They have discussed currency, economics, taxation, welfare, international relations, education, justice and much more.

Some people may have issues with the plan but there is a party, a plan and credible politicians to deliver it. There was a white paper produced by the Scottish Parliament where this information was detailed.

The Indy ref was not based on feelz, there were facts and details all of which were sadly lacking in the Brexit debate.

So what Clavinova? It might or might not have happened. I imagine it would still have been quite an involved process to extricate ourselves although the calibre of politicians was better and there were fewer countries to deal with and many fewer laws to disentangle.

I am very concerned that Brexit may not happen. As a leaver I am still in support of leaving. The reasons that I voted in support of leave have not changed. I don’t want to be part of the European project and I don’t support its federal ambition. I do believe in making independent decisions as a nation, having responsibility for national laws and spending and of course remaining friends with our neighbours.

The decision will impact negatively on the economy leaving people poorer. Actual not enough food poverty. Jobs will be lost and people will suffer and all this will happen to make some people 'feel' better.

Windows The problem is that Leavers like me don't believe this. You think it's fact but I think it's project fear. You need to understand that people have different opinions.

There's another thread on AIBU about Remainers knowing nothing about trade/business. I'm not joining in because I don't think it's helpful to insult people but I must admit I do agree with the OP to some extent.

lucy - lets take one simple example - what is your counter argument to the FACT that car manufacturers are leaving the UK because of Brexit.

That is indisputable.

Several have already said they will not continue to invest in the UK because of the lack of frictionless trade with the EU.

And others will follow - it’s just simple logic - if a business want to trade with the EU it is better off being located there.

So it’s indisputable that jobs will be lost because of Brexit so what will replace them?

@bearbehind

Quick fact check here on your post which says car manufacturers are leaving because of Brexit. That’s not completely accurate: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-47291627

It’s not entirely due to Brexit but, as I said above, it’s simple logic.

If you want to trade with the EU you won’t invest in a country which has barriers to that market.

When you add to that any other factors which case businesses to divest, what are you left with?

A country that has cut its arms and legs off when things are looking a bit ropey globally.

Certainly not a country where businesses are climbing over themselves to invest.

Look it's pretty simple. If you feel that the terms on which we remain members of the EU are too punitive, then you will want to leave. That's a valid opinion. But what leavers have yet to get their heads round, it seems to me, is that entering into trading relationships with other countries, or blocs of countries, or the EU itself, will always carry a cost. The UK is not in a position to survive, let alone thrive, without importing from overseas and having markets to which it can export its own goods and services. So there need to be deals. The choice isn't between EU membership and Sovereignty. It's between EU membership, which confers frictionless trade and a variety of other sociopolitical benefits plus a role in decisionmaking but has what some perceive as costs, e.g. FOM or centralised standards; or an EU trade deal, which confers frictionless trade plus perhaps some of the benefits, some of the costs and no decisionmaking role; or deals with other countries and blocs, which involves submitting ourselves to whatever is demanded of us by those trading partners, e.g. allowing them to asset strip our healthcare system while forcefeeding us chlorinated chicken (and this may transpire to be the acceptable end of the wedge). The Splendid Isolation many leavers seem to have thought they were voting for is not and never was an option, as - newsflash - we no longer have an empire to pillage for our offshore needs. For myself, there are lots of cultural and 'soft' political benefits to EU membership, but the trading position is the cold hard dose of reality that leavers need to get their heads round. Sovereignty as most leavers seem to understand it is Not A Thing and we most definitely do not hold all the cards.

So leavers, rise to the occasion and tell @Bearbehind and the rest of us what it is you're hoping for out of the actual options that are actually open to you. We're dying to know so that we can all 'get on with it'.

One thing that gets lost in all this talk of trade, and customs unions, and inward, outward, upward, and sideways investments - is that the EEC, and it's successor the EU has been enormously successful and doing what it was originally set up to do.

The current UK government may see it solely in economic terms but the Common Market was primally set up by politicians, with fresh memories of the horrors of WW2, to avoid having another vastly destructive land war in Europe.

To that end it has been an outstanding success.

Not the only factor I will admit, but a very important one.

The fact that an entire generation of men (my generation) has been spared, probably for the first time in centuries, the' duty' of going over to the mainland of Europe and killing a bunch of strangers for whom they have no personal animosity is something to be celebrated and built on.

It's something I would wish for my sons and daughters too.

Two generations of men, not just one. Something worth celebrating.

Great post matt - perfectly sums up my frustration with all of this.

We can only have what is within the realms of possibility - until people accept that, this ridiculous cycle of extensions and dumbing down expectations must continue.

@lucyinthefry I entirely understand that people have different opinions. I understand that you have different ideas and priorities to me.

What I don't understand is your refusal to deal in facts. The U.K. economy is worse off because of Brexit. Brexit has cost the country billions already. Money is being thrown away on Brexit. Project fear is real and is is happening.

Not believing this is the equivalent to not believing the earth is round or thinking vaccinations are a bad idea.

Two generations of men, not just one. Something worth celebrating.

True. I keep forgetting how old I am.

It’s the uncertainty that’s causing the current issues

For every expert spouting the statistics of project fear there are many saying it would be fine. Many many politicians are happy with no deal - these have way more facts than you and others do - what makes you more right than those who know more of what’s going on? Why should we believe what you say when other experts say it’s a load of rubbish ?