Baby in cafe

[Ginnymweasley]

Today I was out with my dd(3) and my ds (9 months). We went into a small cafe for lunch, sat down and decided what we were having etc. Waitress came over and we ordered and i asked for a high chair, she informed me there was only 1 high chair and it was in use. So I got ds out if his pram for a bit cause he hates being in it if we are not moving.
He sat on my knee and played for a few mins but then started to get grumpy. He is at that stage where he wants to be moving as much as possible. I got up with him and let him walk around the table a few times holding my hands etc. He wasnt crying or anything just a trying to get down and throwing toys.
A couple came and sat on the table next to us. I stayed stood up with the baby,I didn't go near their table just let him walk around the chair/table to his sister and back. He started shouting a bit, again not crying just babbling loudly. I shushed him, picked him up and tried to distract him. By this point our food arrived.
I strapped him back in his pram and gave him some food to eat. He was again babbling and threw a few bits on the floor. The couple next to us at this point got up,loudly asked to be moved as they didn't like noisy children and parents that couldn't control them. I apologised but they just turned round and said I should have left the cafe as soon as he started making noise but my dd was eating and i was alone so i couldn't do that.
I was so embarrassed, my dd is brilliant when we are out and my ds wasnt screaming just babbling loudly. Wibu?

Just as had the OP been sat in the cafe with her children and the people next to her had been swearing their heads off. The OP could equally have asked to move because she didn't want to sit next to them.

If you can’t see the difference between these two scenarios then there is no point me arguing with you.

And of course people have the right to move away if they don’t like the sound of children! However, if they are going to be so rude about it, I reserve the right to tell them to stick it up their arse.

The problem is that there are very few of these places around.

And what does that tell you? Presumably it doesn’t make business sense to exclude such a significant customer base.

I don’t have a problem with it, so long as there are options available for families.

But ultimately they’ll only exist if people think they’ll be profitable.

If you had bothered to read the other thread you would see lots of people say they would welcome a child free restaurant and lots of people saying that they know of plenty that are child free - so yes, it seems that there is a call for them and they are profitable.

I did glance through the other thread.

That’s great, seriously. I guess it would depend on area.

LittleChristmasMouse that’s not really the point though is it? It is no mothers fault that there aren’t baby free places in your area, or do you think it is our fault somehow and that’s why we should be punished with rudeness?

@LittleChristmasMouse so would adult only spaces exclude or include adults with special needs, my 21 year old niece has speech and hearing impediment - where it seems she is screaming and shouting but she is really talking.

All you care about is adults being able to have a nice sit down meal in public place but anybody disturbing your peace should be locked away at home.

@LittleChristmasMouse and where are these places catering for children

Sweetpea55. Me neither - I can't stand parents letting kids be horrible selfish little brats in public.

BUT the OP's children were being good and normal little ones and one is a baby under one year old! that is a different scenario altogether. We need to support mums of young children. She was doing her best, her daughter was very good and still very young so shows that the OP is a considerate and caring person.

LittleChristmasMouse and where are these places catering for children

Sorry, I don't understand? Lots of places cater for children.

LittleChristmasMouse. Child-free places are a good idea, I agree. But I think that where that is not possible due to space, the children come first and we should never bar them unless it is a very adult place where you wouldn't take children anyway (I actually don't have any examples though - betting shops??)
I too, do wish some parents of older children, say 5+ would try and teach their children to be civilised.

Mind you, one of our favourite story books was Helen Oxenbury's "Eating Out" (I think it's called that, my children are big now.). It says "I was bored so I went under the table" and the Waiter trips over her legs. There's another page where Mum or Dad says "Why can't you be like those nice children?" and the "nice children" look so smarmy-smug and self-important you really hate them!

I completely understand about inclusiveness for people of all ages who have disabilities. I am one of the loudest proponents for this having had (sadly he has died) a severely Autistic cousin and another cousin with Downs. My Auntie of the Downs cousin always took her and I as children on a day out to see the Christmas lights and have a meal and go to a comedy at the Theatre each year. I loved it so much. I remember as a child loving my cousin, 2 years older than I, so much. When I was l was little I was so proud telling Father Christmas "This is my Cousin XX" because she didn't talk. I am so glad that we see people with disabilities everywhere now. In the past it was not so common. They really contribute so much to our lives.

We need to support mums of young children.
Lots of other people need support and consideration too. Including those whose needs conflict with the needs of children.

Maybe parents of young children should also consider those people?

What does “support” actually mean, in this context?

animaginativeusername. People who cannot accommodate your niece's needs aren't worth worrying about. I have had a lot of contact with the deaf community. They have a tough time and often feel excluded. I find that utterly disgusting. God bless your niece, I hope she has many wonderful experiences and lives a very happy life.

Both sides of this prob reasonable. You were trying your best, but I suspect your baby was louder than you realised. The walking around/standing up would have annoyed me, we used to take one of tgose collapsible seats that fit to normal chairs with us.

They could have had any manner of issues, you can’t really judge them, you never know if they just didn’t like kids or might be returning from hospital having found out ivf had failed.

Tbh, you might need to develop a bit of a thicker skin

@LittleChristmasMouse no soft play accessible by bus. We went once but my 5 year old hated it as too loud. There is McDonald's, subway etc but though he likes the food I don't. Other than cafes, takaways there isn't anywhere I can take him when needed. So cafes it is. And if he was screaming child, I'm sorry but I would finish my coffee and cake (I paid good money for it), probably makes me sound entitled but it may be the only peace I get.

luckily he has never misbehaved, runs around or shouts. He has been going to cafes since weeks old, and was a shouty baby at 9 months and once or twice a screaming baby. But since 18 months old never been caused trouble.

I would finish as fast as possible or take away with me if possible

And if he was screaming child, I'm sorry but I would finish my coffee and cake (I paid good money for it), probably makes me sound entitled but it may be the only peace I get.

And it might be the only peace the other customers were going to get, disrupted by a screaming child. But your choice to stay there and also their choice to tell you what they thought about it.

Maybe parents of young children should also consider those people?

Well absolutely, but as far as I can see no one has suggested banning these people from public places.

TheGrey1houndSpeaks. Sorry if I wasn't very clear. Thanks for asking.
I mean that mums or parents/carers with young children, especially babies, should be able to go out and have their needs met. such as: breast feeding babies should be accepted wherever mums feel comfortable and a private area for mums preferring privacy. High chairs in cafés and children's menus. Not making a mum feel embarrassed when her baby cries - it's what they do! Wheelchair accessibility - as with disabled people. Provision for heating baby milk bottles. I could go on but I hope you get what I mean. Most of all I wish we could promote a more baby-friendly and child-welcoming attitude in general, so that the miserable couple in the OP's example would feel embarrassed to be so nasty about children who are this young and the café staff would be more helpful. Just as there has been a positive attempt to make people aware of disability,
I'd like to see a "child-awareness" scheme to promote a caring and helpful attitude to people with babies and toddlers in particular. I think we, in the UK are not as warm and welcoming to young children and their needs or the needs of their carers when they are out as we should be. It has been said for decades how much more the people on the Continent love children than we do and that they are more welcome in a French café than in Britain.
I hope this explains what I meant.

Ellyess

Yet what about disabled people who are effectively excluded from these places? Deaf people for example? A poster earlier explains how difficult it is to be in a loud environment. I have a friend who can't participate in a conversation if there is too much background noise.

People in the early stages of dementia often get agitated in loud, frenetic environments.

So you campaigning for everywhere to welcome mums and young children actually excludes some other people who also need to get out and socialise.

It's all so one sided.

I have a friend who can't participate in a conversation if there is too much background noise ... People in the early stages of dementia often get agitated in loud, frenetic environments.

These people need to seek out quiet establishments and/or quiet corners. If child free places exist then great.

It is not reasonable to ban children or to curb normal children’s behaviour (like babbling 9 month olds) to accommodate them. Everyone in society needs to rub along together.

LittleChristmasMouse What needs do people have that conflict with those of a young family in a café, which is to address the example we have here? Because "Quiet" is not a need, it is a preference. The OP was attending to her baby. I believe the couple were selfish in being so rude to her as to insult her and almost demand she leaves the food she has paid for. They came to a public place to eat. They have to accept that a mother and baby have the right to be there. They sat next to the baby. That was their choice. They were very rude people. I feel very sorry for the OP.

These people need to seek out quiet establishments and/or quiet corners.

And around we go again. Yes, they do. But they practically don't exist.

And even when people find a quiet spot (as reported on here) parents find it quite acceptable to park their children in it, cause a rumpus, and the attitude on here is that the person requiring quiet should move.

Because "Quiet" is not a need, it is a preference. quiet can very much be a need for people with some disabilities and how much of a need is it in that case to take children into cafes? It isn't is it? That is a preference exercised by the parent.

LaurieMarlow. Thanks for saying that. I think it is time we gave more help to people raising children, it is such a vital job.
Of course there are people with special needs such as you explain, but as you so sensibly explain, we cannot make a world that bans children because of those with special needs, sad though their situation is. I have found, when my mum was in the situation you gave, having Alzheimer's, we still managed to find places to take her that were not noisy or that had quiet corners. It is possible to meet differing needs in different places.

how much of a need is it in that case to take children into cafes? It isn't is it? That is a preference exercised by the parent.

How much of a need is it for the people you mention to go to cafes? Pretty much the same deal really.