The resolute Catholic and the athiest

[Loulouzz]

Myself and DP have come to a standstill. Very serious and talks of marriage and children are on the cards, fantastic we're both on the same page. But now the topic of religion has reared its head and we're butting heads.

I went to a CofE primary school, was christened, attended church etc but it was never really part of my home life and now mid 20s I'd say I'm an athiest, or at least agnostic. DP on the otherhand attended an all boys Catholic school, was baptised, completed holy communion and had to attend church until midteens. He's a Catholic, it makes no odds to me and I'm happy he has a faith I'm almost sad I don't but its not something I can believe in.

So now children are on the cards and he's adamant he wants them to be like him and be Catholic, including a baptism. This isn't something I'm at all comfortable with. I want my children to be presented with all the information and make a decision for themselves, not attend church into teen years and essentially become brainwashed. I'll never crap on his beliefs but I also won't teach them as fact. I've said I'd be happy enough with a christening but not under the umbrella of the Catholic Church. This feels like middleground, they're pretty much the same bar some subtle differences, one of which is that a christening is considered a naming ceremony but "In the sacrament of Baptism the baby's name is used and mentioned, however it is the rite of claiming the child for Christ and his Church that is celebrated.. requires nurturing through such things as worship, prayer, Bible study and other spiritual disciplines". It's all these restrictions, rules and guilt culture I can't get on board with.

I have no issue with religion or my children becoming Christians but I have issues with the Catholic Church, I have think they rate themselves superior, above the law, are an antidemocratic and authoritarian institution and you do not need to follow their additional rules to be a healthy happy Christian. I feel people will say its just a baptism it doesn't mean much but once a childs name is given to the church its entered into the "baptismal rolls" of your local Diocese. This name is PERMANENTLY in those records, and the Diocese uses those rolls to inflate their claims of catholics. You can only remove it by applying to the Vatican for 'defection', not excommunication, and this too was abolished in 2012.

There are so many issues within the Catholic Church that I don't want my child on a list that gives them lobbying power, bigger tax breaks and more governance.

I've tried to communicate this but we're not getting anywhere, he says he'd maybe one day be okay with a CofE christening whereas I would actively dislike a Catholic baptism so surely that's a fair middle ground? He says I'm hurting him with this and I don't know what to do but it's something I feel strongly about, as clearly he does too. I'm not completely in the know with this topic so any additional information regardless of who you agree with will be helpful.

Massive well done if you got to the end of that rambling mess, sorry everyone I'm just fretting. How would you handle it?

Sorry I have read everyone's posts, but I can't keep up to reply to all

I merely pointed out that, on a day to day basis, the Catholic practices I was brought up with in the 1970s are considerably more liberal and intellectually sophisticated than what I've encountered in the evangelical C of E in the last few years, which is witless, reactionary Biblical literalism.

I agree with this. And CofE convert priests are often far more obsessed with catholic doctrine than actual catholics.

OP to go back to your OP I do really sympathise and agree with you. I didn’t send my children to catholic school or church/communion classes for the same reasons. I guess when it came to baptising I saw no harm although I did grapple with the decision beforehand.

There was the slight expectation afterwards (from my family) to do the whole catholic shebang but in the end we just didn’t go to church or enrol in catholic school so the expectation sort of fiddled out.

I admire your principles and completely agree that they are as important as your DH’s, but on the basis I personally wouldn’t consider baptism in the CofE church either.

Good luck!

Hi OP

There are a lot of things that you're likely to disagree on as parents and most of the time you can sit down and discuss the best way forward. Normally it results in some sort if compromise. You've said you'll compromise - what has your husband compromised? Is he saying it's got to be his way or no kids?

Firstly I'd be wary that he was going to have this attitude towards other issues where he won't give an inch.

Secondly, I totally get ideologically why you dont want this. But practically, what difference do you think this will make? For instance, your husband was brought up cargolic but doesn't seem that committed. Do you think it will make much difference to your childs life day to day? I'd say going to a religious school would have much more of an impact. Personally I'd probably concede this point as I dobt believe so therefore a religious ritual before they are old enough to speak doesn't mean anything to me. But I'd make sure they were presented with a 'mummy believes this, daddy believes that' version of religion rather than a 'daddy is right' version and also not go to a religious school as I think things like lack of sex education is totally wrong

But I'm completely pragmatic and I realise this approach doesn't suit all

The CofE and Catholic Church aren't really that different.
Protestants and Catholics are both christians but we do have differences in our beliefs.

A few to name:

Venerating Mary
Praying to Saints
Transubstantiation of the Eucharist
Pope
Sola Scripta (taking the word of the Bible as literal)
Saved by faith alone or faith and good works.

I'm all charity, I think that you probably need to learn more about your partners beliefs and cultural background. You seem quick to dismiss Christianity but lack a basic understanding.

A few other points are that baptism isn't just a fun day out for all the family. To a praticising Catholic, it is singularly the most important sacrement as the child is welcomed into the church as part of the church - its been called an indelible mark on the soul. Also, once baptised or confirmed Catholic (if validly baptised in another denomination) you are always Catholic. The Catholic Church will always see you as a Catholic (even if falled away/renounced etc). You can't delete your Catholicism and I think you can only request a line to be written against your baptismal record to state that you are no longer praticising e.g. Defected. However, theologically, you will always be Catholic.

If you're partner is serious about baptising children Catholic, I think you should both make an appointment to see a local priest. There's lots of inaccurate information on the formal teachings of the Catholic Church (seen a couple of howlers in this thread alone) so they would be the best people to guide you in your joint decision.

I hope someone in the 4 pages I’ve read has corrected that a c of e baptism isn’t recognised by the Catholic Church - mine was when I did RCIA about 8 years ago. I also discovered I can take Anglican communion without needing a special conversion.

Someone needs to tell the Head of the Church of England that she's actually a Catholic 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

DP isn't home yet we're going to have a long talk when he is, the hammering my heads taken from reading all posts is pushing me towards thinking I don't want them christened at all but if they're going to be it may aswell be Catholic. But as some pps have said it would very much be mummy believes this and daddy believes that, neither is wrong but it is not fact. I also cannot lie and pretend to join the church as 1. I'm abandoning my own beliefs and 2. I'm lying to them and that's fundamentally wrong. Only time will tell, and my opinion of the CC as an institution won't change, nor will my resolve on pushing children into such religions. Given that DP would be okay with a church marriage, not Catholic (God they're long), and outside! And that he won't push a strict Catholic school I feel I should allow for a baptism. Even though I believe what I do and probably always will, but my love for DP and need for him to be happy and feel 'proper' trumps the twist in my gut I'll feel when MIL comments on our little Catholic babies, and the inevitable "we'll they're baptised, what about communion" from all sides... One step at a time.

Nothing has divided the world like religion has

Within Christianity there are something like 4,000 different branches, of which Catholicism is the principle religion (think back to the reformation etc etc) all other Christian religions are an off shoot of Catholicism .

Catholicism was the enforced 'state' religion for centuries until the Reformation, but there are no indisputable grounds for assuming that it was the original and/or principle branch of Christianity. Obviously, as a Catholic, you believe that Peter was the first Pope based on your understanding of Scripture, but this is, of course, in no way agreed on by Protestants. The organised Catholic church wasn't even formally established until the end of the 2nd Century.

There are so many essential basic Catholic doctrines that are completely opposed to essential basic Protestant doctrines that nobody could logically claim that the two are merely denominations of the same belief and broadly the same, whichever one they might choose to follow.

I really have to take issue with your comment way up the chain along the lines of 'christen as a Christian not a catholic' - you have no idea do you, you're clueless on the sub denominations of Christianity. How about a Baptist or Lutheran or Mormon or Hussite or Coptic? They're all Christians

You use a rather harsh, unnecessary tone, may I say. As for Mormonism being another branch of Christianity, like the Baptists or the Lutherans, there are so many key doctrinal differences between Mormonism and established mainstream Christianity that, although Mormons are, of course, perfectly at liberty to identify as Christians, their beliefs are thoroughly incompatible with those of the vast majority of Christians.

I could freely identify as a vegan and eat a cheeseburger in public every day and there's no 'council of vegan' that could legally prohibit me from claiming it, but, unsurprisingly, the vast, vast majority of people identifying as vegans (and following established vegan principles) would very reasonably not accept me as one of their own.

Also, I apologise to you and to them if I'm wrong, but I think you may have misinterpreted what the PP meant by "'christen as a Christian not a catholic' - I don't read this as 'instead of' a Catholic but rather as a Christian in the broader sense of the word and not limited to Catholicism.

Good luck with it all, OP.

It might be worth pointing out that you won’t be making any promises, or have any intention of going to church to get the children into Catholic schools, or doing first communion prep classes with them if they do, so he’s aware all these things will involve work and time commitment from him, if he wants to take this further than baptism.

Incidentally, are you saying your Catholic DP would like a ‘Church’ marriage, but not a Catholic one? So, what does he mean, marrying in a C of E church, despite the fact that he’s a lapsed Catholic and you’re an atheist?

I'm not a great Catholic and DH is atheist (CofE baptised).

It hasn't complicated our lives too much so far, despite DC. I do my thing with them now, and they get their choice once they are older. DH also gets his voice across now too. Such a lot of my cultural background is the RC religion entwined with my non British heritage, that is something I would like to share with my DC.

FWIW I come from a long line of mixed marriages (RC, CofE, Jewish, Hindi) so there's a family history of compromise, it can be done!

I'd say my faith improves my mental well-being.

DH's mental reserves are based elsewhere.
He does not respect the RC religion, but he tolerates it.

I will, they're good points thankyou. No idea yet, I wouldn't marry in a church all he's specified is a priest or vicar, it has to be in the eyes of God not a civil

Should you get married in the Catholic church OP you don't have to have a Mass,
so not too long. We didn't and it was about 30 minutes in all.

As a lapsed Catholic and gay woman (so not exactly loved by the church) I will still get my baby baptised within it. It was driven home to us that you do not go to heaven if you are not baptised. That includes all the little babies that die. I know it's ridiculous, indoctrination and fear mongering but it is so deeply instilled in me that I would never not get my child baptised in the Catholic faith just in case. It is my choice to live my lifestyle and shun the church but there is no way I would run the risk for my baby. I am a sensible, intelligent professional that would never admit that out loud but if your husband is of the same view, maybe that will you help understand it a bit more.

Tbh if you're married you're married and maybe he could compromise on that!

Marriages that are civil ceremonies are still recognised by the church (eg you can't go marrying anyone else without annulment or divorce).

When My parents got married she was catholic and he was an atheist

Wedding pictures show her kneeling and him standing up

He hated/hates the church....loathes it

But agreed that the children would be christened and brought up in the church

I stopped going to church at 13 and my mum always hoped i would go back, my brother was a bit older

Both now very very very lapsed...completely atheist

I dont know what the point of my post is really

But I suppose that she felt strongly about it and he loved her

Sometimes love isn't enough though...

Good luck in whatever you decide

@StrippingTheVelvet - I think it has softened its line on unbaptised babies go to hell. What with it being nasty.

Oh sorry just seen strippings post

None of my children are Christened

But i agree with her that sometimes the doctrine (I suppose) is hard to shake

@loulouzz

Catholic priests will only be able to marry you in a church/Chapel. If you wanted to get married in a different Catholic parish for a particular reason (e.g. Your home town) you would require permission from the Diocese Bishop (usually granted).

Outside weddings are very very rarely allowed. There would have to be very strong reasons to convince a Bishop to grant permission and persuade a priest.

Otherwise, your partner could request a dispensention to marry in a protestant denomination (likely to have different rules).

Catholic weddings are not particularly long.

why should someone say he "isn't a true believer" because he doesn't show face every week
I have literally NEVER heard anyone say this and I am a catholic.

My husband isn’t, my children are, my father wasn’t, one of my siblings is an atheist. I think you have a HUGE problem with Catholicism. I’m honestly shocked. I don’t think you would say this about Judaism or frankly any other religion. You need to understand why this is such an issue for you. Why can’t he freely follow whatever religion he chooses and teach his children what he believes? Why can’t you do the same?

“I don’t think you would say this about Judaism or frankly any other religion.”

I would!

@bellinisurge

Catholics can't say that anyone is in/is going to hell. The only being that we know is in hell is the Devil.

God isn't bound by the sacrements so we have hope in God's grace regarding unbaptised babies. We believe that such children rest in the mercy of God.

stripping rcia 8 years back was teaching that they don’t believe in limbo anymore and that Jesus can save anyone - hopefully some more church reforms to come.

Op I do wonder if you’re more atheist than anything and your dh is loosely a Catholic, why he can’t have the marriage in a Catholic Church and a baptism? I’m a very pragmatic type though but I remember asking the same questions when we had a Muslim/atheist fall out in our family - if it’s meaningless ritual to you, why does it matter?

InionEile 's post is the most perceptive on here OP, and you would do well to take heed of it.

I was brought up Catholic - couple of things. To get baptism you would need to meet the priest and I expect attend church a few times.

I don’t think the baptism is too bad, it’s just a symbol of your intentions to raise the child in the faith.

For Holy communion the child (aged about 7-8) will need to attend classes so either both of you or DP will need to commit to attending church regularly.

With regards confirmation (age about 13) THATS when the child chooses if they would like to be fully confirmed into the faith. I did not do this (my dad didn’t like it) by that age I had decided not for me. So the child will get to have an informed choice by that time.

Again if does confirmation will need to attend classes and again attend church regularly.

Raising a child into the Catholic Church, teaching them so they are able to decide for confirmation takes commitment from the parents so be aware of this (more so than
CofE)

I can’t see it being a deal breaker but maybe really look into it as your DP may not realise what he is signing you both up for especially if he is not that committed himself, will he be to take the child?