The resolute Catholic and the athiest

[Loulouzz]

Myself and DP have come to a standstill. Very serious and talks of marriage and children are on the cards, fantastic we're both on the same page. But now the topic of religion has reared its head and we're butting heads.

I went to a CofE primary school, was christened, attended church etc but it was never really part of my home life and now mid 20s I'd say I'm an athiest, or at least agnostic. DP on the otherhand attended an all boys Catholic school, was baptised, completed holy communion and had to attend church until midteens. He's a Catholic, it makes no odds to me and I'm happy he has a faith I'm almost sad I don't but its not something I can believe in.

So now children are on the cards and he's adamant he wants them to be like him and be Catholic, including a baptism. This isn't something I'm at all comfortable with. I want my children to be presented with all the information and make a decision for themselves, not attend church into teen years and essentially become brainwashed. I'll never crap on his beliefs but I also won't teach them as fact. I've said I'd be happy enough with a christening but not under the umbrella of the Catholic Church. This feels like middleground, they're pretty much the same bar some subtle differences, one of which is that a christening is considered a naming ceremony but "In the sacrament of Baptism the baby's name is used and mentioned, however it is the rite of claiming the child for Christ and his Church that is celebrated.. requires nurturing through such things as worship, prayer, Bible study and other spiritual disciplines". It's all these restrictions, rules and guilt culture I can't get on board with.

I have no issue with religion or my children becoming Christians but I have issues with the Catholic Church, I have think they rate themselves superior, above the law, are an antidemocratic and authoritarian institution and you do not need to follow their additional rules to be a healthy happy Christian. I feel people will say its just a baptism it doesn't mean much but once a childs name is given to the church its entered into the "baptismal rolls" of your local Diocese. This name is PERMANENTLY in those records, and the Diocese uses those rolls to inflate their claims of catholics. You can only remove it by applying to the Vatican for 'defection', not excommunication, and this too was abolished in 2012.

There are so many issues within the Catholic Church that I don't want my child on a list that gives them lobbying power, bigger tax breaks and more governance.

I've tried to communicate this but we're not getting anywhere, he says he'd maybe one day be okay with a CofE christening whereas I would actively dislike a Catholic baptism so surely that's a fair middle ground? He says I'm hurting him with this and I don't know what to do but it's something I feel strongly about, as clearly he does too. I'm not completely in the know with this topic so any additional information regardless of who you agree with will be helpful.

Massive well done if you got to the end of that rambling mess, sorry everyone I'm just fretting. How would you handle it?

We're happy in sending any children we have to a good school that isn't religious, school is for learning a broad range of topics, not having one religion drilled into you. We agree on that

Are you absolutely sure about the "we" on this? It seems a bit odd for someone so keen on baptism to be relaxed about the school and I can't help wondering if one expectation would be quickly followed by another

You've posted about finding a middle ground and that's fine, but IME it's not always enough to satisfy some religionists. What you'll need to find out is if he's one of them

Good luck loulouzz.

Good luck , indeed Loulouzz.

It can be surprising how divisive this issue can be . I really do still suggest you have a serious chat with your DP .
My comments may sometimes come across as being flippant BUT if you do not sort it out before you are married and have children then I think it is a deal breaker .
It does not matter one iota how much you think you love each other .

Having worked in both RC and CofE schools and have relatives who were baptised RC because their father was and their mother wasn't (but still got married in an RC church because their mother wanted to respect the feelings of her fiance and his family), now teaching in RC schools, I have to say that in reality, RC schools are a lot more relaxed and laid back than CofE about many things and they certainly have less Evangelistic Christianity to deal with.

To give examples, one of the relative's children would attend Book Day events dressed as witches. Not a peep out of anybody. If it was tried in the CofE schools, you would hear the screams of rage from the Vatican. Halloween isn't forbidden in RC schools. One of the CofE schools had students, never mind their parents, flipping out because they learned about Dia De Los Muertos in Art, saying it was against God/their religion and Satanic. There was an attempt to get Science and Geography lessons to teach Creationism. And the disrespect shown whilst in a CofE church by kids who attended different churches was so bad at one, they were banned.

My relative has gay colleagues at their RC school. They aren't pretending to be heterosexual.

DP is RC. A shit one, admittedly, but he still believes. If we had children, I would have been absolutely fine with them being baptised and attending RC school. They'd get the legally required level of religion in school whatever.

I wonder, OP - if you don't believe, why is it such an issue that you hate the RC church? Baptising them RC doesn't matter if you don't believe, as you don't believe they have souls to be dedicated to God. If you had them baptised CofE, their souls would still be non existent/dedicated and all that would happen is that they'd be used as bargaining chips by a church that has been very fortunate to have escaped the bad press - as they are equally infested with child abusers, are immensely wealthy, homophobic, misogynistic and have more influence over England than the RC church do.

It's as much his decision as yours. It matters to him as part of his faith. You don't have one. Why not let him have his own (future) children brought up with his faith?

DS (baptised CofE, not confirmed, non-practicing) married DDIL (RC, was church attending) in an Italian RC cathedral. Two dgcs, not baptised, attended nominally CofE school.
DDIL no longer attends church and both grandchildren being raised non- denominational.
It is possible that your DH's views will change, I never imagined DDIL's would!

As a practicing Catholic married to an vehemently anti-clerical atheist (DH is a vicar's son!), I feel your pain. I'm not sure whether you want to hear this: the good news is that we've found it possible to make a mixed marriage work - the bad news is that you're right to think that religious differences like ours are an issue for couples and parents and wider families. (Your fiance is likely to be under a lot of family pressure around marriage in church, baptism, first holy communion , catholic schools etc).

Now, I'm liberal (by Catholic standards); I disagree with the church on a whole bunch of issues; and intellectually can live with the idea that children should not be indoctrinated with a religion. I've sought out a more liberal parish where there's more focus on the local homeless and the local food bank than there is on what people do in bed and with whom! (I have faith that there is slow but steady progress from Church leadership in a more liberal direction. Very slow progress!) That said, my faith is a massive source of comfort to me and I wanted my children to have access to that. DH and I agreed that I would be free to talk about my faith and DH would be free to talk about his atheism. My eldest two now both agree with DH. I was not prepared for how that would make me feel: a deep part of me does feel like I've failed as a parent. I worry I didn't do enough to "give the gift of faith". I know that sounds really overdramatic but it is true!

So, yeah, I'm not sure whether this helps much. But please don't believe that your relationship is "down the pan" because you have religious differences. Just know that this is an issue you will have to work with and through together. But every marriage has those!

OP I recognise this is a difficult issue, and your being able to talk about it now not wait until after marriage is I think a positive thing. I agree with your talking to your prospective future FIL.

My parents come from different Christian churches, my dad's parents likewise, and one of my mum's parents from another faith. This was in the days when these were much bigger deals than they are now. They managed to accept and live with their different faith. I hope ultimately that you can.

I am one if 4 children all raised Catholic. 2 never set foot inside a church, 1 goes occasionally and confesses to believing in something, but is unsure what
I am Catholic with occasional spells of being a lapsed Catholic.
Your child will be perfectly able to choose for themselves when they are older, even if you have them christened.
Your argument is specious

You have sectarian prejudices against Catholics, OP. That’s your problem, not your DP’s religion. I don’t see the CofE and the Catholic Church as being all that different. One is a power structure for the British monarchy, one is a power structure for a global patriarchal church based out of Rome. It’s a case of pick your poison, not a case that one church is some evil supranational power and the other is a benign neutral option.

To be fair to both of you, you would have to go with no baptism at all rather than denigrating the Church your DP was raised in and assuming the worst of it and refusing Catholic baptism on the basis of prejudice.

Is your DH a practicing Catholic? If so, then his faith is important to him and you have to respect that as it is part of who he is. I was raised Catholic but am not practicing and my DH was baptised Church of Scotland but is a fairly hardline atheist now. He still doesn’t denigrate anyone’s faith, however, except in the sense that he is skeptical of all religious institutions and the power they wield (as am I). You are actually prejudiced against a specific faith - Catholicism - and you should think about why that is and what messages you grew up with about Catholics to make you think this way. Would you feel the same way if your DH was Jewish and wanted to e.g. circumcise any male children you had? Or if he were Muslim?

When the church counts its numbers, you and all the other folks who now don't believe for whatever reason, thousands of you, are still a Catholic on their rolls and are part of the church on paper. Their numbers dictate many things including what they're entitled to

OP, you seem fixated by this idea of some roll of numbers, but there isn't one. Do you think there's some central rollbook with some cardinal crossing off dead people and writing in newly-baptised babies? the Catholic church, like most other religious organisations, works off census data and voluntary surveys conducted at the parish, diocese and national level.

I, for instance, despite being a baptised, confirmed Catholic, won't appear on any data -- I don't attend church, I'm not a member of a parish, I don't self-identify as Catholic in surveys. No one is getting any money because of the fact of me.

This might help on Catholic data:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21545819

And I agree broadly with what Mitzi says here as regards comparative liberalism between Catholic and evangelical C of E:

Having worked in both RC and CofE schools and have relatives who were baptised RC because their father was and their mother wasn't (but still got married in an RC church because their mother wanted to respect the feelings of her fiance and his family), now teaching in RC schools, I have to say that in reality, RC schools are a lot more relaxed and laid back than CofE about many things and they certainly have less Evangelistic Christianity to deal with.

To give examples, one of the relative's children would attend Book Day events dressed as witches. Not a peep out of anybody. If it was tried in the CofE schools, you would hear the screams of rage from the Vatican [I assume this is a typo for C of E HQ]. Halloween isn't forbidden in RC schools. One of the CofE schools had students, never mind their parents, flipping out because they learned about Dia De Los Muertos in Art, saying it was against God/their religion and Satanic. There was an attempt to get Science and Geography lessons to teach Creationism. And the disrespect shown whilst in a CofE church by kids who attended different churches was so bad at one, they were banned.

My relative has gay colleagues at their RC school. They aren't pretending to be heterosexual.

Two close lesbian friends met via their Catholic parish one of them was a minister of the Eucharist, and the other was handing around the collection plate and had a blessing from a Catholic priest at their civil partnership.

Catholicism doesn't do Biblical literalism or creationism, and I'm still baffled by the anti-Hallowe'en stance of DS's C of E school. The vicar told them at assembly this year not to go trick or treating because it 'wasn't Christian' which they all promptly ignored.

I wasn't brought up to believe anything, my grandparents are all religious and no one has suggested the CC is bad. I can see myself the issues of the CC, through even mainstream media, and I don't support it. I know CofE has its issues too and I know its not benign, but I would prefer that over Catholicism.

If my DP wanted to circumcise and our children had to have the procedure done, we wouldn't be having children in the first place. That's a hard no from me. Religion hasn't played a role in out relationship, what he believes has been his own perogative, no decisions have been made considering religion and it rarely comes up. Until now and I feel different. He hasn't been an active Catholic it hasn't really been part of out life together. I'd feel the same about a Muslim but I know we just wouldn't work together, the same as if DP was a devout Catholic: mass together every Sunday, Catholic wedding, babtism etc etc we wouldn't work

Threads like this are always full of “Oh, Catholics are all liberal now, everyone’s either gay or using birth control or both, no problem with abortion either. AIDS in Sub Saharan Africa? Nothing to do with us, guv. Child abuse? Nah-all in the past. Have you noticed that the Pope doesn’t wear Gucci shoes any more? Totes down with the people.”

Nothing’s changed. It’s the same as it ever was.

Catholics in Western Europe tend to be liberal. Catholic hierarchy in the developing world less so. And as we have ridiculous restrictions on abortion rights right on our doorstep led by a bunch of Creationist loons currently holding the Tory party to ransom who resolutely aren't Catholic being a reactionary misogynistic shit is not confined to either the Catholic Church or far away.

All religions, clubs , groups have their faults.

All have corruption in many forms.

All have unpalatable histories .

Peace, love , and understanding. !

“a reactionary misogynistic shit is not confined to either the Catholic Church or far away.”

No. But being a reactionary misogynist shit is part of the fibre of Catholicism. All the many individual Catholics who aren’t have to stick their fingers in their ears and ignore the institutional misogyny and corruption.

You've answered your question right there, OP. Up until now you have felt things were ok because your partner's faith has not really impinged on you. Now it is and you aren't comfortable with it. Mixed faith relationships are not impossible but they are hard. You come across as very vehemently anti-Catholic so my advice would be don't marry one.

Wow .
Just wow .
So much hate on here .

You think the Catholic Church is not worthy of hate?

I was brought up catholic (Mum was staunch catholic, Dad brought up methodist but agnostic).
I got married in a catholic church although I didn't really consider myself catholic by that time - I guess I didn't think too much about it.
When it came to children I went to see the priest and told him that I don't go to church and had no intention of doing so or taking the children. I said Mum was insistent and I didn't really care enough to go against her so it was up to him.

He said 'I wouldn't stand up to her on it either. If you have them baptised it is kind of like giving them a passport and that if they were looking for something to believe in when they grew up they would likely look at catholicism first'.
Fine - they were baptised - they are both atheist, doesn't bother them that they were baptised because it means nothing to them.

I guess what I am saying is that if you are not religious then what does it matter - indifference is the key word. It doesn't sound as though your DP is particularly bothered apart from the baptism bit.

I doubt Bertrand Russell would agree with BetrandRussell.

Catholics was the word used , not Catholic Church

Threads like this are always full of “Oh, Catholics are all liberal now, everyone’s either gay or using birth control or both, no problem with abortion either. AIDS in Sub Saharan Africa? Nothing to do with us, guv. Child abuse? Nah-all in the past. Have you noticed that the Pope doesn’t wear Gucci shoes any more? Totes down with the people.”

I have never suggested this, and I think it's an unfair account of what's gone on on the thread. I am not a practicing Catholic. I have not baptised my child. I point out the reality to my mother every time she tries the 'a few bad apples' theory when clerical child abuse comes up.

I merely pointed out that, on a day to day basis, the Catholic practices I was brought up with in the 1970s are considerably more liberal and intellectually sophisticated than what I've encountered in the evangelical C of E in the last few years, which is witless, reactionary Biblical literalism.

And one thing I meant to mention earlier, which is a growing concern in Catholicism. is the extent to which priests from far more conservative local variants of Catholicism (from Africa in particular) are now being imported into European parishes as there's a shortage of clergy, and bringing a much more hardline and doctrinaire religion with them. My two lesbian friends who met via their formerly gay-friendly London parish have now left, as that parish is now staffed by an order of largely west African priests well, I imagine the order is originally European, but the priests seem to be Nigerian and has changed entirely.

@Loulouzz
I hope you get the issue resolved amicably.
The thread has taken on a life of its own now.

I've just picked up on this gem, OP

But a Catholic is a Christian aren't they? So why can't they be Christian (if they choose) without being a Catholic?

Do you understand about the various faiths? Christianity is an off shoot of Judaism, it is the second of the Abrahamic trio of faiths. Within Christianity there are something like 4,000 different branches, of which Catholicism is the principle religion (think back to the reformation etc etc) all other Christian religions are an off shoot of Catholicism . The third in the Abrahamic trio is Islam

I really have to take issue with your comment way up the chain along the lines of 'christen as a Christian not a catholic' - you have no idea do you, you're clueless on the sub denominations of Christianity. How about a Baptist or Lutheran or Mormon or Hussite or Coptic? They're all Christians

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

CharlyAngelic Thankyou me too. And it certainly has! I'm not going to get involved in a pickapart debate I'm just looking for, I don't know what, advice and opinions, respectful ones.

PlainSpeakingStraightTalking The CofE and Catholic Church aren't really that different. All you listed have issues of their own but are irrelavent to me at this point in time. No I haven't researched all faiths and why on earth would I. This is the first instance one has impacted on my life. I'm not religious I don't live a religious life, why am I here? To hear from people about their own experiences and try to be open to compromise and to understand other people's views. Your tone is pretty rude and conceited, that's a very quick way to cause someone to turn away and close their ears. Not really a gem is it, "you're clueless on the sub denominations of Christianity", gosh ain't I thick!