The resolute Catholic and the athiest

[Loulouzz]

Myself and DP have come to a standstill. Very serious and talks of marriage and children are on the cards, fantastic we're both on the same page. But now the topic of religion has reared its head and we're butting heads.

I went to a CofE primary school, was christened, attended church etc but it was never really part of my home life and now mid 20s I'd say I'm an athiest, or at least agnostic. DP on the otherhand attended an all boys Catholic school, was baptised, completed holy communion and had to attend church until midteens. He's a Catholic, it makes no odds to me and I'm happy he has a faith I'm almost sad I don't but its not something I can believe in.

So now children are on the cards and he's adamant he wants them to be like him and be Catholic, including a baptism. This isn't something I'm at all comfortable with. I want my children to be presented with all the information and make a decision for themselves, not attend church into teen years and essentially become brainwashed. I'll never crap on his beliefs but I also won't teach them as fact. I've said I'd be happy enough with a christening but not under the umbrella of the Catholic Church. This feels like middleground, they're pretty much the same bar some subtle differences, one of which is that a christening is considered a naming ceremony but "In the sacrament of Baptism the baby's name is used and mentioned, however it is the rite of claiming the child for Christ and his Church that is celebrated.. requires nurturing through such things as worship, prayer, Bible study and other spiritual disciplines". It's all these restrictions, rules and guilt culture I can't get on board with.

I have no issue with religion or my children becoming Christians but I have issues with the Catholic Church, I have think they rate themselves superior, above the law, are an antidemocratic and authoritarian institution and you do not need to follow their additional rules to be a healthy happy Christian. I feel people will say its just a baptism it doesn't mean much but once a childs name is given to the church its entered into the "baptismal rolls" of your local Diocese. This name is PERMANENTLY in those records, and the Diocese uses those rolls to inflate their claims of catholics. You can only remove it by applying to the Vatican for 'defection', not excommunication, and this too was abolished in 2012.

There are so many issues within the Catholic Church that I don't want my child on a list that gives them lobbying power, bigger tax breaks and more governance.

I've tried to communicate this but we're not getting anywhere, he says he'd maybe one day be okay with a CofE christening whereas I would actively dislike a Catholic baptism so surely that's a fair middle ground? He says I'm hurting him with this and I don't know what to do but it's something I feel strongly about, as clearly he does too. I'm not completely in the know with this topic so any additional information regardless of who you agree with will be helpful.

Massive well done if you got to the end of that rambling mess, sorry everyone I'm just fretting. How would you handle it?

@coldframe “ethnically catholic”? What does that even mean?

He probably doesn't even know why he wants his children baptised because it will be a deeply embedded feeling that was indoctrinated into him when he was a child.

The compromise is agreeing to teach your children about all beliefs and letting them decide for themselves when they are older.

I think you are muddying the water by offering a CofE christening. Just say its a no from you, inducting children into such a corrupt organisation is just wrong. Those are your beliefs and he has to respect them.

A catholic baptism is the thin end of the wedge, if you agree to that then I cant see how you would be able to say no to any of the religious events that being a Catholic child involves.

But children are indoctrinated into religion, you are a product of your environment.

Nonsense -- you rebel against your environment. It's called growing up! My parents are very devout, and so was the (not UK) society I grew up in. I grew up with weekly Mass and confession and fasting from midnight before Mass, and Mass every holy day of obligation, and daily Mass during Lent, and the Legion of Mary, and Benediction etc. I made my first communion and confirmation, was taught by nuns all the way through primary and secondary. I am a highly secular, sceptical adult who believes as you do, that religion is a human phenomenon prompted by the fear of death.

I can honestly say that my upbringing and education was less credulous and more intellectually sophisticated than the evangelical C of E stuff my very sceptical six year old gets at the village school, and that it did not constitute any form of 'brainwashing' beyond the age of believing in Santa Claus. I have, however, chosen not to baptise my son, unless one of his grannies surreptitiously did it when he was a baby. (A lay person can in certain circumstances baptise a baby...)

FreezerBird Of course, I'll try.
The difference is the church they're entered into, as others have said, I think, my issue is with the Catholic Church not religion/Christianity. I know in both cases they're essentially put on the list forever.

I don't support the Catholic Church that's it, I don't support them as an institution for many of the reasons listed by myself and others and I don't want them to add to the tally of Catholics, regardless of if they actually practice, becuase they're on the list as a Catholic that influences the churches entitlement to tax payer money etc and I don't agree with what they choose to do with it. I know it's just a could of humans and insignificant in the grand scheme of things but it goes against what I believe in and I'd be supporting something I'm against. It's very complex but I'm learning a lot from this.

I hate the rules and regulations that an institution comes up with, you have to follow them or you're not a good Christian and feel guilty. I don't agree with that. DP feels guilty for not going to mass, he's at work, but if God is in his heart and he believes in him, why should someone say he "isn't a true believer" because he doesn't show face every week

I have a similar situation. My oh is from an Irish family. They are not devout catholics but would consider it a devout part of their identity. My oh has not been to mass since he was a child but he would like our son to be brought up catholic. I won’t pretend to understand why, especially when the actual religion doesn’t seem to play any role in this desire. He says it’s more cultural than religious and I’m taking it too seriously! I guess I thought if there was a god I do t think it would be too happy about people baptising their kids that have no intention of bringing them up in that religion. Plus I have some reservations about the Catholic Church. Anyway, I’ve said he can have him baptised and he can go to a catholic school but I’m not going to be part of it. It’s up to him to take him to mass, organise his first communion, enroll him in school (ie most of the things I’d usually do). So far he’s gone very quiet on the idea. He hasn’t even found out where our local Catholic Church is!

Haven’t RTFT but I was brought up catholic and am now atheist. As someone who has grown up with huge issues with the Catholic Church I think personally you are over-thinking it! Even lots of practising catholics usually have some sort of issue with the church. The ones I know supporting legalising abortion in Ireland for example, and most think women should have been priests a few decades ago! Sure it has many faults, but even a progressive Pope has a near impossible job imposing change within the Vatican.

My children don’t go to church (although I might if I wasn’t so lazy as I do like the sense of community, which is why most people go) but I had them baptised as catholics, and got married in a Catholic Church because it meant more to my mum than not doing it meant to me. They may be on a register forever, but so are my two atheist cousins who went to church approx five times in the eighties and nobody from the church has ever knocked on their door.

Sounds like you are happy for them to go to a church while they are little. So why not a a Catholic Church since your DH will be happy to take them?

Thinking of your DH for a sec, if I (a non-practising Catholic) was going to do any of it at all in a church, it had to be in a Catholic Church as I have no affinity with CofE churches (and even less with Baptists, which is what’s DH’s family are although thankfully not him). So I can see why your DH would prefer his church as the religion one of the two of you.

You obviously feel very strongly about it though. Would talking to a priest help? My uncle did his when he turned atheist and he found it helped although it did not change the outcome.

“ethnically catholic”? What does that even mean?

I suggest you look up the Troubles.

I assure you that if I were walking down the street in Belfast tomorrow with a C of I friend, and we were killed by a car bomb, it wouldn't be whether we believed in transubstantiation that would dictate how our deaths would be reported.

I wouldn't choose to have a child with someone who differs from me so fundamentally. I think it would be beyond silly to christen your kids into your church when you don't even believe in god to appease your partner who doesn't even share that faith.

I would share that mindset myself.

Thinking about it, would you as the child's DM have to take an active part in the ceremony? Would they expect you to make vows that you would personally not be willing to keep - or could you just sit in the congregation and leave those family members who are of the faith to make the vows?

Ps sorry all the typos. And I do really sympathise with your issues with the Cc! Just don’t think you should let it should cause you relationship issues.

I'd have to, I'd feel disrespectful even lying. I'd go and watch but I couldn't participate

No I don't either Jenniferyellowcat but it's like his belief trumps mine because he DOES believe in it and I don't. But me believing it isn't real and shouldn't be taught as fact to my kids is just as important and ingrained in me and DPs is ingrained in him. I'd support church when they understand what they're hearing not as very little people

I was brought up Catholic...atheist now. Ime it's quite likely something life changing like having a baby might trigger his return to worship and the church, possibly short term but be ready for it. Catholic school wasn't too bad - but it depends on the school - all the church going, now that was bloody awful and the day I liberated myself from it I broke my mother's heart - but I freed my own! It all feels very alien to me now and no way would I be forcing religion on my kids - MIL is very religious but she knows better than to push it on them.

he will forever be a tally in their numbers

This is paranoid nonsense. What do you think happens to all of us who were brought up Catholic and now think it's all a load of bollocks? Nothing. We just get on with our lives.

But I can't imagine getting together with someone who was actively religious (or even a believer) if I wasn't. I don't know there is a compromise - depends how much "programming" goes on a school? The christening is just a ceremony, a day to wear a nice outfit. It has no meaning if you don't believe so does it have to be e big deal? I say that as a godparent who had to say the ludicrous stuff about casting out satan out loud without laughing.

AverageMan it's a different denomination,not religion. They're not that far apart!

Not wanting to derail the thread, but there are some extremely fundamental doctrinal differences between the Catholic church and most Protestant churches. That's what started the Protestant Reformation in the first place.

Hinduism and Sikhism have a lot of principles in common, but it doesn't mean that they're pretty much the same.

Hi, I'm an atheist, married to a practicing Roman Catholic. We have 2 kids, both baptised, but go to a secular school (DH agreed with me that the school run to the local Catholic school would be a nightmare). To be honest it was a relief that faith school was inconvenient. They do go to church though (without me) and will both do their First Holy Communion. Marriage is about compromise and trusting the other person. Accepting differences. My DH wouldn't be the same person without his faith so it must be part of why I love him. However, we are on the same side politically, which is far more important. I am from a very socialist background and couldn't be with someone who voted Conservative. I have a lot of problems with the Catholic Church, but I have to respect that it's very much part of my DH's life. Plus I can give my kids an alternative opinion to religious views they learn from church, which in a way is healthier than my background with two atheist parents who never introduced me to any aspect of faith.

When the church counts its numbers, you and all the other folks who now don't believe for whatever reason, thousands of you, are still a Catholic on their rolls and are part of the church on paper. Their numbers dictate many things including what they're entitled to and what's been mentioned before. Because of something they endured when they were a baby regardless of if they actually consider them selves one. By all means decide yourself and join whenever you like

“Marriage is about compromise and trusting the other person”

If the children are being brought up Catholic then there is no compromise happening at all.......

MermaidUnicorn Thankyou, I expect we'll end up somewhere like you and your H. I would be relieved too.

I think you're right about it must be a part of him and of why I love him. I've never thought about this before but I suppose a lot of his values are from practicing religion so for that I can be grateful. When we're home I'm going to bring it up and talk it over see what we think together

Proceed with caution OP, this exact scenario has happened with several of our friends at primary school in “mixed marriages” and has led to quite a few rows.

One family in particular where the parents had a Register office wedding (ie not church) but the child had the whole works for both baptism and FHC, including big party for all of the families and the mother complains bitterly about it to this day!

It tends to be less of an issue if the parent doing most of the caring and organising is RC...if the children go to a Catholic school it will be woven throughout their whole day, not just assembly and Mass and the pressure to do first Holy Communion etc will be high which might mean weekly Mass and regular prep classes for you!

And some men will agree that they won’t baptise etc but then Mammy comes along and shames them into it...and then maybe the school is a bit better or closer or whatever.

Walk with caution if you don’t want it in your life.

His dad isn't Catholic or religious at all, although he also isn't antiCC like maybe I am. I'm going to have a chat with him at some point about how I feel and that might help, he knows them after all

Well, you've all suitably scared the shit out of me. I know we'll work it out and thank God I do because some of these replies indicate our relationship is already down the pan!

"If the children are being brought up Catholic then there is no compromise happening at all......."

I am pagan and my DH is atheist. If we have children then I will answer any questions they have and if they wanted to visit a church of another religion I would take them, while reinforcing the fact that different people believe different things and each of us has to draw our own conclusions, providing we are not hurting or restricting the freedoms of others within a legal and social context. Or something.

But I would not have married in a church, had my children christened or send them to a faith school. I was forced to go to Sunday school and it was an awful experience for me and I also remember being forced to attend an assembly with a priest at school who was very unpleasant to atheists.

However all of this is moot as me and DH are in agreement on all of this. It is very difficult when you come at something from two different sides. I do think the fact your H doesn’t really attend church or practice a lot of Catholicism does weaken his argument a little. There does have to be some compromise in every relationship of course, but it is also fine to draw a line in the sand that is important to you and that applies to you and your H equally. Good luck

Bertrand, I trust my DH with my children and his faith if that makes sense. Otherwise there would be no point in us being together. They get a completely different point of view from me.

As a catholic registered somewhere, I think weekly income is a better judge of “numbers” than all the historic roll which isn’t updated.