The resolute Catholic and the athiest

[Loulouzz]

Myself and DP have come to a standstill. Very serious and talks of marriage and children are on the cards, fantastic we're both on the same page. But now the topic of religion has reared its head and we're butting heads.

I went to a CofE primary school, was christened, attended church etc but it was never really part of my home life and now mid 20s I'd say I'm an athiest, or at least agnostic. DP on the otherhand attended an all boys Catholic school, was baptised, completed holy communion and had to attend church until midteens. He's a Catholic, it makes no odds to me and I'm happy he has a faith I'm almost sad I don't but its not something I can believe in.

So now children are on the cards and he's adamant he wants them to be like him and be Catholic, including a baptism. This isn't something I'm at all comfortable with. I want my children to be presented with all the information and make a decision for themselves, not attend church into teen years and essentially become brainwashed. I'll never crap on his beliefs but I also won't teach them as fact. I've said I'd be happy enough with a christening but not under the umbrella of the Catholic Church. This feels like middleground, they're pretty much the same bar some subtle differences, one of which is that a christening is considered a naming ceremony but "In the sacrament of Baptism the baby's name is used and mentioned, however it is the rite of claiming the child for Christ and his Church that is celebrated.. requires nurturing through such things as worship, prayer, Bible study and other spiritual disciplines". It's all these restrictions, rules and guilt culture I can't get on board with.

I have no issue with religion or my children becoming Christians but I have issues with the Catholic Church, I have think they rate themselves superior, above the law, are an antidemocratic and authoritarian institution and you do not need to follow their additional rules to be a healthy happy Christian. I feel people will say its just a baptism it doesn't mean much but once a childs name is given to the church its entered into the "baptismal rolls" of your local Diocese. This name is PERMANENTLY in those records, and the Diocese uses those rolls to inflate their claims of catholics. You can only remove it by applying to the Vatican for 'defection', not excommunication, and this too was abolished in 2012.

There are so many issues within the Catholic Church that I don't want my child on a list that gives them lobbying power, bigger tax breaks and more governance.

I've tried to communicate this but we're not getting anywhere, he says he'd maybe one day be okay with a CofE christening whereas I would actively dislike a Catholic baptism so surely that's a fair middle ground? He says I'm hurting him with this and I don't know what to do but it's something I feel strongly about, as clearly he does too. I'm not completely in the know with this topic so any additional information regardless of who you agree with will be helpful.

Massive well done if you got to the end of that rambling mess, sorry everyone I'm just fretting. How would you handle it?

Sorry about the enormous links. Baptism is often as much about the parents wanting Gods blessing for the child as about the intention to bring the child up in the faith.

My husband is RC and I'm c of e. It hasn't been easy but has proved possible to negotiate our way through. Two of the kids are at a catholic primary which is a very caring and lovely place. I wouldn't personally have taught my daughter the rosary but I can see that she benefits from prayer at school. It's a calming activity in a stressful world. There are benefits to having a faith background. I wouldn't personally worry too much about indoctrination. After all huge numbers of kids go to church schools but very few practice as adults.

You’re basically asking him to stop being a catholic to marry you. Catholic’s must bring up their children as catholics and if they want to get married must do it in a Catholic Church and non-catholic spouses must agree to the children being raised catholic to marry in a Catholic Church.

Your stance means he cannot be married in his church and if the children aren’t raised Catholic I’m not sure how he would be able to call himself catholic

He doesn’t have to attend mass every Sunday or on holidays of obligation but to procreate outside of marriage and raise his children outside the church is a huge deal.

I’m a lapsing Catholic with a non-Christian husband and I honestly think I’d have been broken if he hadn’t wanted the sacrament of marriage with me. I don’t think it can work and a definitely don’t think you should just pick another Christian religion and pretend to want to be part of their church

It's not you being baptised though. You can still hold those anti-Catholic beliefs. It's important to pass on our faith and values to our children.

So he's ok about schools.

Is it just the Baptism he is concerned about? Considering what you just wrote about what he said about his school, how can he be pushing this?

Do you know his reasons? Is it family, nostalgia, true belief???

The more you post, the more obvious it becomes that the issue isn't with you being an atheist, it's that you're staunchly anti-Catholic. I don't think you can bridge that gap.

I think it is a compromise, they're christened into Christianity, whether or not you'd be happy with 'Christian' as opposed to 'Catholic' depends on how strongly you feel about it. But I don't think he does feel as strongly as some of you do. If he was devout, mass every Sunday, this is his life then I'd be more willing. But not as it stands.

He's 26 and definitely did experience school as he says, he's embarrassed on their behalf he would never tell me that otherwise.

I don't want a big ol debate I just want us to settle and crack on with no one feeling like they've been ignored, that's what I was asking. But he's not as serious as some PPs, neither side is wrong so please don't shit on either side, everyone is entitled to an opinion

Crikey I didn't anticipate how strongly people would feel and voice it

I know in reality its just a splash of water and a lot of talking

it is to you, but not to them. They will, as you realise, see your agreement to the ceremony as your endorsement of the fact that, although you personally aren't, your child(ren) are being brought up as Catholics with your blessing. It will also, in their eyes, give them the moral high ground and prevent you from later refusing any routine Catholic-based life choices for your child, such as schools ("Well, you were happy to have her/him christened, so I don't see why you've suddenly changed your tune - you're just being difficult for the sake of it.")

I'm afraid I can't see a way around this other than amicably deciding to go your separate ways. It's a bit like when one of a couple is determined that they want a baby but the other is equally adamant that they don't. Either one of them has to give way and quite probably be very resentful for the rest of their life or, otherwise, accept that they aren't compatible on a crucial issue and split, allowing each partner to find somebody else who does want the same as them.

Just to clarify, Catholics do not accept other baptisms or christenings. If you are baptized into another church then you would have to get re done to join the Catholic Church.

You feel very strongly @Loulouzz

I agree with the pps that have pointed out it’s your lack of respect for his beliefs that’s causing a problem here. It’s not about how the children will be brought up, it’s your anti catholic stance. You need to admit this to yourself and then decide how far you are prepared to push it.

Your way or the highway.

Hi @Loulouzz

I do not normally comment on threads but I felt the need to contribute to this one briefly.

On one hand I can see that your relationship clearly means a lot to you and your partner for you to discuss having a future together that includes children. On the other hand, you and your DP do seem a bit like chalk and cheese. I say this because, you are so against everything that the Catholic Church teaches and your DP (whether he is a regular attender or not) obviously thinks the opposite or he would not be wanting his child baptised there.

I have a number of points I want to contribute which I hope will help you and your DP.

1. Baptism from other churches is recognised within the Catholic Church as long as it was from a church that believes in the trinity (father, son and Holy Spirit). I say this as I am prove myself. I was baptised as a baby in a non-catholic church and then last year changed to catholic did my first confession, holy communion and I am about to do my confirmation later this year. My priest said as I was previously baptised I did not have to do this again and it is actually frowned upon to do a second baptism.

1. In a practical terms, your child would be baptised as a baby and then first confession and first holy communion would not occur until the child is like 5/6 years old or older I think. So realistically you and your DP has time to discuss and decide upon those next steps. If your DP had began attending mass weekly by this point and had showed significant improvements in his faith then maybe but at the same time you can just see what your children want at that time. I remember my priest telling me recently that all the children from a local catholic primary school took part in the preparations for the first holy communion as its part of the school teachings but that some parents refused their children to take part even though the children themselves were very motivated. You could wait and see how things are then.

1. I would highly encourage you to attend mass with your DP to see for yourself what catholic church is like and for you to talk to the priests about your views. Most priests are lovely and are happy to hear your concerns.

Overall, the purpose of all of this is to develop a relationship with God and to give your life to christ. I really do not see the need to go into all of that as I am sure your aware since your partner is catholic. I do think that your comments about the church are very mean and disrespectful to your partners religion. I do not view the Catholic Church as brainwashing and I say this as someone who went to another non-catholic church and found it very much like that.

In my own case I came to the Catholic Church after I had already been a christian for around 4 years. However, I grew up in a very anti-catholic childhood home and I had a similar attitude as yourself (not as extreme) towards the Catholic Church. It was not until I experiences it for myself that I came to realise its where I need to be.

However, thats my OWN JOURNEY and its not for me to tell you what to believe or what to think and that your believes are wrong because they are just as valid as mines. I just think you and your DP need to seriously sit down and discuss this much more before you start baby dancing! I do think attending mass will help you decide whether a catholic upbringing for your future children is something you can handle or not.

I was brought up in a staunchly catholic household, christened, communion, confirmation. I've been happily atheist since my mid-teens, and I couldn't give a monkeys that I was christened etc and I certainly don't think badly of my late parents.

I suspect any potential future children would feel likewise.

AverageMan that is exactly the whole point. It's not about me, and it's not about him. It's about what our kids want and only they know that when they're of an age they can understand. What you're saying is my views are wrong but I can have them, DPs views are right and should be passed on, ie bring them up in that faith

Its all these rules and guilt culture. I suppose I am anticatholic. But a Catholic is a Christian aren't they? So why can't they be Christian (if they choose) without being a Catholic? It's Catholics saying that's wrong and they're not true believers but you all believe in the same god

I really don't think this is gonna work.

I'm a Catholic married to an atheist and for sure he despises the crimes of the Church but he is not as extreme in his views as you. Frankly if he was, our relationship wouldn't have survived as I needed to a) get married in a Church and b) baptise future kids. However I agreed that they go to a non denominational school.

I don't expect my kids to grow up with any interest, really. But at least they will have some education in it and will have gone to Mass and funerals and will be able to judge it from the inside as opposed to the outside. And they can stay in or never darken its doors again as they wish.

But if I really thought he was literally gritting his teeth and rolling his eyes whenever my Dad said grace before meals whenever we visited them, I'd have been seriously pissed off and rethinking the whole thing. I never expected DH to join in, but I certainly expected him to behave with the same manners as if he were visiting a Muslim or Jewish family.

The more you post, the more obvious it becomes that the issue isn't with you being an atheist, it's that you're staunchly anti-Catholic. I don't think you can bridge that gap.

But isn't that pretty much the same insofar as if you're a XXXX, then you're staunchly anti any incompatible faith or belief FOR YOURSELF AND YOUR CHILDREN?

I know it's not really the same thing, but I enjoy eating meat and have no issue at all with others who choose not to; however, I would be staunchly anti anybody trying to pressure ME OR MY CHILD into giving up meat (obviously, if my DC should independently choose it for himself at any point, that's fine with me).

I agree with you that the gap doesn't sound bridgeable, though.

No such thing as a catholic child

Only a child with catholic parent(s)

Id be telling him that he is to do nothing about getting his kids in to his religion in any way until they are old enough to choose themselves.

Just to clarify, Catholics do not accept other baptisms or christenings. If you are baptized into another church then you would have to get re done to join the Catholic Church.

This isn’t true. Baptisms from other mainstream Christian denominations are generally accepted as valid. If you were baptised LDS or similar that might not be, but Church of England baptism would count as a baptism and wouldn’t be repeated.

Also you don’t have to raise children Catholic if you’re Catholic - Church teaching is that you should raise them Catholic if possible, but that you shouldn’t jeopardise a marriage for it. (They would generally expect him to get married before having children though.)

If you are going to allow your children to be brought up in a religion, I don’t think there is any valid argument for choosing one over the other. So I think you should decide if you are ok with your kids being raised at least quasi-catholic. If you are not, then you need to leave this relationship.

I would not have children with someone who wanted to teach our children to believe in anything but rigorous skepticism and the search for facts. That is my personal belief and it’s a deal breaker for me.

If it isn’t a deal breaker for you, then you should realize that every religion has its problems both in messages about morality, treatment of women, and institutional corruption.

I wouldn't choose to have a child with someone who differs from me so fundamentally. I think it would be beyond silly to christen your kids into your church when you don't even believe in god to appease your partner who doesn't even share that faith. This isn't a "middle ground" issue. Either don't have kids with him, don't christen any kids you have or allow them to be baptised into their fathers faith but explain to them at home that religion isn't a fact.

Lapsed cradle catholic here. From a long line of catholics. I toyed with the idea of baptism for my children, but my DH was really against it. For me, actually, it was the prospect of opening options for schooling that was attractive to me. We have a good catchment primary, but some of my friends in the same city don’t and the catholic primary here is very very good. As it happens, our catchment primary is quite a full on CofE school so we have the same conversations with our kids anyway.

I haven’t been to mass in years, and am happily atheist/agnostic. We come from completely different cultural and religious backgrounds but we muddle along. I don’t regret not baptising them, but if i were married to anyone else I expect they would have been done. We didn’t circumcise either though, which I suppose was his compromise to me - he didn’t even ask, and defended the choice to his parents.

I'm Catholic fiancé is pentecostal, we are getting married in Catholic Church. I made it clear from the beginning this was something I was not willing to budge on. Kids will be raised Catholic, take it or leave it, this was something I was not prepared to comprise on too. Basically I gave him my red lines.

What are your partners red lines and what are yours and find comprimise on there.

To be fair Catholic schooling these days is not like before, Catholic schools now have to allow people from other religions so there are opt out options for you as a parent giving you some control if you put children in that kind of environment. But when the time comes it may actually be that the Catholic school is not the best option for your child too, it may not fit and the child themselves may not want to partake in the teachings and activities. That's if you raise your child in a way that they think for themselves and challenge things.

Having said that CofE and Catholicism are not THAT different from each other, same faith different denominations so I do think you will be able to reach a comprimise due to the love you have for each other.

theotherblonde Thankyou that's a great response and was really helpful to read and I've taken it all on board. Regarding the lack of respect, I do have strong views on what I've talked about yes definitely. But I 100 percent support my DP to follow his heart and what I feel deep down, including what I've written, I would never push onto him or bark at him about it. I've encouraged him to go to mass because it does relax him and he feels better in himself, I can't stress enough that I fully support and respect his opinions for himself, but this includes me. My views are a mixup of environment and experience, as are everyone's, they just happen to be different.

If they wanted to enter the Catholic Church they could so of their own accord at a later date following a christening, I'll take them myself if that's what they'd like.

I'm finding this really difficult, and yes we need to understand each other and work it out without either of us feeling like the other forced it. DP has mentioned going and speaking to a priest, I've agreed to attend Mass so I'll go and see for myself and take it from there.

If our children were to be baptised into the church would they even consider it, considering my views? If I commit to some of the things mentioned, I'd just be lying

We are the same as you OP. I’m probably more staunchly athiest than you though.

Our kids are all baptised (catholic) and go to catholic school. It’s a great school so I’m happy enough with that. Baptism is fine with me too because it doesn’t mean anything to me so I’ve no need to go against it whereas it meant something for my DH so I let him have that one. For me it was nice to bring the family together and celebrate the babies. I may be athiest but was raised very very seriously church of Ireland so all these ceremonies are normal for me. Even if I don’t believe in God in the slightest, I do believe in the values ‘the church’ teach and the community that it brings together so I love a good service to meditate followed by coffee and free traybakes! It’s great to meet the neighbours I’d otherwise never come across.

Where we differ is the level of ‘truth’ placed on God/Jesus etc but our kids are little and I can see that the framework of ‘God’ helps give the kids context for the teaching of important values. And just like Santa, I can play along with some fairy story that is a positive experience for the kids. We have agreed that they are told ‘some people believe xyz’ and that they learn about all religions, as well as atheism, as they ask questions.

I strongly criticise the Catholic Church on an organisational level and my kids will be involved in those debates when old enough. But on a local level the local church community offers lots of positive things. Faith or no faith. And my serious lack of faith is of no business or consequence to anyone else.

the fact I've said I'll be happy enough with a christening is already putting myself in the middle

You seem to have some weird idea that the C of E is some kind of middle ground between 'atheist' and 'Catholic', which you appear of think of as some kind of Christianity Plus -- it isn't, you know.

And given that your DP appears to have survived his Catholic childhood sacraments and education with enough independent will to live and have sex with you outside of marriage and using some form of contraception, and is not a mass-goer, I really don't see why you think your children would be permanently brainwashed by baptism.

I'm culturally and ethnically Catholic, and grew up in a very devout household, but am not a believer, and I would see my education as considerably less witless than the kind of Biblical literalist evangelical nonsense that my unfortunate seven year old gets from the vicar on his visits to the village school.