The resolute Catholic and the athiest

[Loulouzz]

Myself and DP have come to a standstill. Very serious and talks of marriage and children are on the cards, fantastic we're both on the same page. But now the topic of religion has reared its head and we're butting heads.

I went to a CofE primary school, was christened, attended church etc but it was never really part of my home life and now mid 20s I'd say I'm an athiest, or at least agnostic. DP on the otherhand attended an all boys Catholic school, was baptised, completed holy communion and had to attend church until midteens. He's a Catholic, it makes no odds to me and I'm happy he has a faith I'm almost sad I don't but its not something I can believe in.

So now children are on the cards and he's adamant he wants them to be like him and be Catholic, including a baptism. This isn't something I'm at all comfortable with. I want my children to be presented with all the information and make a decision for themselves, not attend church into teen years and essentially become brainwashed. I'll never crap on his beliefs but I also won't teach them as fact. I've said I'd be happy enough with a christening but not under the umbrella of the Catholic Church. This feels like middleground, they're pretty much the same bar some subtle differences, one of which is that a christening is considered a naming ceremony but "In the sacrament of Baptism the baby's name is used and mentioned, however it is the rite of claiming the child for Christ and his Church that is celebrated.. requires nurturing through such things as worship, prayer, Bible study and other spiritual disciplines". It's all these restrictions, rules and guilt culture I can't get on board with.

I have no issue with religion or my children becoming Christians but I have issues with the Catholic Church, I have think they rate themselves superior, above the law, are an antidemocratic and authoritarian institution and you do not need to follow their additional rules to be a healthy happy Christian. I feel people will say its just a baptism it doesn't mean much but once a childs name is given to the church its entered into the "baptismal rolls" of your local Diocese. This name is PERMANENTLY in those records, and the Diocese uses those rolls to inflate their claims of catholics. You can only remove it by applying to the Vatican for 'defection', not excommunication, and this too was abolished in 2012.

There are so many issues within the Catholic Church that I don't want my child on a list that gives them lobbying power, bigger tax breaks and more governance.

I've tried to communicate this but we're not getting anywhere, he says he'd maybe one day be okay with a CofE christening whereas I would actively dislike a Catholic baptism so surely that's a fair middle ground? He says I'm hurting him with this and I don't know what to do but it's something I feel strongly about, as clearly he does too. I'm not completely in the know with this topic so any additional information regardless of who you agree with will be helpful.

Massive well done if you got to the end of that rambling mess, sorry everyone I'm just fretting. How would you handle it?

Its a good idea to go to mass.

Its the biggest cure to religion together with reading whatever book they have

AverageMan it's a different denomination,not religion. They're not that far apart!

OP it's not a deal breaker for your relationship. He feels strongly about a baptism but says he might be OK with CofE so there's signs of compromise there. As he's not currently practising I guess his everyday catholicism isn't that important.
A baptism is cultural as much as religious for many people and I guess that's what's really at the bottom of this. Becoming part of the tribe. If you don't want your child to be part of the Catholic tribe,for reasons stated, then you are entitled to your view. But don't let it become a deal breaker. Religion can cause so many problems.

Let’s face it, most of us don’t choose to be of a certain religion, our parents do it for us, and carry it on down the family due to tradition. It’s the way religions manage to survive. Many are brought up in a certain religion and then come to the conclusion that it’s mostly a load of bollocks when they start having independent thoughts and live independently of their parents. That was certainly the case for DH and one of his brothers. The ones that DON’T do this are the ones to pass it on to the next generation. Like Father Christmas.

Re catholic schools. You may be surprised to learn that many kids at Catholic secondary schools not only don’t believe in the Catholic Church but they don’t believe in any god at all. They’ve just had the path drawn out for them as a baby and that’s why they’ve ended up there. It’s a total nonsense.

Will he want to get married in a Catholic ceremony?

It doesn't really work like that. C of E is not a compromise particularly asy ou were brought up C of E. I suppose one child catholic and one C of E might be a compromise. Why not as it is so important to your husband just go along with what he wants?

And given that your DP appears to have survived his Catholic childhood sacraments and education with enough independent will to live and have sex with you outside of marriage and using some form of contraception, and is not a mass-goer, I really don't see why you think your children would be permanently brainwashed by baptism.

This^^ . Presumably your DP is a decent bloke, despite coming from the Catholic background that you despise.

If you are not happy about this church now it is doubtful you ever will be. Also there are still massive child abuse issues that this insitution still won't address. Would you want your children exposed to these people?

You remind me of a bf I had when I was younger. He was lovely, kind, etc. However, when our relationship started to become serious, it became obvious he was very anti-Catholic. His mum even took me aside to apologise and explain it didn't come from his family.
In the end, we realised our relationship couldn't go any further. We were both sad but adult enough to realise we couldn't bridge the gap. imo it's time for you to make that same decision.

Catholic mum, non Christian Dad. Brought up Catholic.
You should both get over yourselves. I find it hard to believe this hasn't come up in conversation between you before.
My dd went to a Catholic primary because I couldn't get her into the non Catholic one. Normal ordinary working class area that happens to have lots of Irish, Italian and Polish people in it. My dd goes to a non- Catholic secondary because I preferred a non- Catholic education for her.
Any children you have will not become mindless drones if they go to catholic school. They will have as much or as little of it as you and their father can be bothered with.

You have my sympathies.

But I wouldn't have made it to second date with a christian I'm afraid.

It has come up and he'd said yeah probs be fine blah blah CofE as long as they're Christian. So I thought fair enough we'll christen when the time comes, pick the best school in the area etc. But now this has come up it's a different viewpoint. Hence the reason I asked in the first place!

He's never insisted on a Catholic wedding it was just said we'd have a priest. And from the get go I said I'd love an outdoor wedding and nothing was said so I've always thought that's all fine no issues from him

Lots of Catholic talk, but I figure some context may help with my perspective. I grew up in a Catholic house in a highly academic, liberal, hippie Catholic community. I never dated a guy in my history because I knew before we started dating that he wanted to marry a Jewish girl and I would never convert to anything that didn't fit me better than Catholicism.

Of my 4 siblings, only 1 practices currently. The rest of us haven't found churches that give us what we need. The Catholic church is an institution, but individual communities vary wildly. Our community growing up was welcoming of gay people (had to be, we were based outside of San Francisco) and would have women give the homilies with some regularity. This wasn't normal for a Catholic church and many of us have struggled to find an equivalent later in life.

My Catholic elementary school taught about sperms and eggs as sex ed (my older sister talks about having to look up where they ever came into contact). My Catholic high school answered any question people had about sex (we heard about oral, anal, gay, straight, bi, three ways, you name it!). It really depends on where you are and what the community is.

One issue with the argument of "I want my kids to make decisions for themselves" is that by not modeling any religious behaviors, the default becomes no religion. I have heard of very few parents who "let their kids decide" who actively take their children to temples or mosques or churches or synogogues to make informed choices. They just let them learn about it in their RE classes and call it a day.

If he wants the kids to be baptised Catholic and raised with religion in their life, it may be that, despite not practicing, your DP may find some elements of the religion comforting as an adult. If he wants his kids to be brought up religious, having them brought up in a different community than the one he knows may be uncomfortable.

Conversion is a tricky conversation. I had a mate who would regularly tell me I should convert to Judaism because I was "halfway there." But I knew Judaism lacked what I wanted out of a religious experience, so Catholic remained my default. I'm now snooping around some other sects, but again, only because they align more closely to my personal beliefs.

Perhaps bring him to some C of E services and see how he gets on? He may realise they're not so different after all.

@Loulouzz

Your welcome and I did not mean any offence by my comments but I just feel sad to hear someone say the word "brainwashing" in relation to the Catholic Church where my own experiences has been so loving. For example, nothing is every forced upon me unlike the last church (non-catholic) where it was a very horrible environment.

As for whether the church will baptise your child, I need to be honest and say I do not know the answer to that question. I think it depends on the priest for a start and I think the main thing comes down to this "Will you raise your child to believe in God and to life a christ like life?" Thats what it comes down to in a nut sell really.

To put it this way for me. In church last Sunday a priest from America was visiting and preaches about sin. His comical take on this bible passage had everyone in hysterics as he talked about how these men wanted to stone Mary Magdalene to death according to the law of mosses as she was a prostitute. Jesus said to them "He who is without sin can throw the first stone" or something like that after he was writing something in the ground.

All the men paused and thought to themselves am I without sin? I think I am but Jesus clearly thinks I am not without sin so have I sinned? Eventually all the men left as they realised they had sinned themselves. Then Jesus said to her something like, you are been forgiven go away and sin no more. The priest was trying to get the point across that sin gets in the way of a relationship with Christ. The Catholic Church wants to foster that relationship and this is why sins are sins because they get in the way of that loving relationship. But the priest also said that we cannot judge those that sin but instead look at the person behind the sin and ask yourself why did they get into this situation? Surely no one is born in life thinking they want to be a prostitute?

I may have described that story wrong but the point is (from my perspective) that the Catholic Church simply wants to worship Jesus and encourage others to as well in order to achieve internal life.

Taking kids aside for a moment, I think it would serve you well to ask yourself why do not believe in God? What do you believe in? What experiences have you had which made you come to this decision or these believes?

You know I never believed or did not believe growing up. I was baptised as a baby and then my parents started working Sundays and never took us to church. It was not until 2013 when a friend asked me to go to church and at a very low point in my life I thought "oh why not will harm will it do?" I did not start to believe in God until I was in church and until I started hearing the pastor preach. Even then I thought everyone in this mega-style church was a bit crazy. I enjoyed the dancing and the music but I did not believe so to speak. It was through may experiences and many things which happened to me which slowly brought me closer to God. My journey to the Catholic Church is a whole other story.

So I cannot judge you for your believes but I will say this. Regardless of what you believe I will pray for you and your relationship. My own marriage is so strong because we are accountable to our faith and we believe that God is at the centre of our marriage supporting us.

From another perspective, I could not marry someone who does not believe in God as its just the same as your situation but from the other way around I think. I could not handle a compromise or a middle-ground, I would be very clear and I think thats why I love my husband so much more because we are on the same page about everything. I think you deserve that in a partner and you deserve to be with someone who thinks the same as you and will know how and why you feel a certain way.

I do really hope your relationship can weather this storm. When talking to a priest be open about your views but say it in a a tactful way so you do not upset anyone.

All this talk of not bridging the gap, give up now etc. What a ridiculous notion. I acknowledge the people saying this feel strongly one way or the other, but to give up the person you love most, who loves you back, your plans are aligned, views in almost everything bar this are aligned and no one makes you happier, because you're incapable of compromise one way or the other is insane. If push really really came to shove, like shite would I be a martyr and lose my absolute love for the sake a baptism and a religion I don't even believe in. But it would grate on me for a long time and go against what I do believe in, to pacify him. I don't think I would be resentful, but you don't know until you're experiencing it

OP, can you expand a bit more on what you see as the distinction between baptism and christening?

It sounds as though you see christening as a sort of baptism-lite, but it's just another name for baptism in the c of e. The same promises are made, and the child is baptised into the Anglican church, just as in a Catholic baptism they're baptised into the Catholic church. And each church does recognise the baptism of the other. There's no such thing as a 'christening' as a separate thing.

Some c of e churches do a dedication or naming ceremony I think - is that what you're thinking of?

I think that many people feel the need to belong to a tribe, as others have said, and like the regular routine of going to church as well as the social aspect of it.

Personally I think deep down a lot of modern church goers must inwardly raise an eyebrow at all the chanting that goes on in church (always sounds very cult like to me) but as well as the positives mentioned above they like the reflections by the priest/vicar. Just a reminder on how to be a decent member of society or lessons we can learn from some situations. The songs are quite nice too. All of these things make attendance at church much more bearable during the period of preparing to have a much wider choice of schools than non church goers..

But the actual religion part. The fire and brimstone. The chanting. There are MANY MANY people today that just can’t be doing with that and think it doesn’t have any place in modern society. It doesn’t keep people in line anymore because I don’t know any sane adult that really believes that they will end up in the fiery depths of hell if they step out of line. Unfortunately it’s this aspect that puts a lot of people off religion of any kind and sounds like what puts you off, OP.

I am an atheist but have to attend mass sometimes. I just ignore all the daft religious stuff. I sit out the communion (and laugh at the people going up who look all serious and devout when I know they have a horrible nasty streak to their character but hey ho). I enjoy the music and the sitting quietly and sometimes something is said by the priest which makes me think.

A Catholic SCHOOL is a whole other kettle of fish. They will learn very little about other religions. Most of it will be about pure Catholicism and reflecting on life from a Catholic’s point of view.

You might be happy with the “nice, sociable” aspect of your child attending a Catholic Church but you may well start to resent hearing your child spouting stuff as if it is fact once they are being properly indoctrinated educated in the Catholic faith.

One issue with the argument of "I want my kids to make decisions for themselves" is that by not modeling any religious behaviors, the default becomes no religion

And is that a problem?

It's the way all children are born.

Oh, tricky. I am an atheist, but my Catholic upbringing is definitely a part of my cultural identity. My Dad is Irish, my Mum converted from CofE to marry him - they were both very young at the time. Both my brother and I went to Catholic primary schools, but not secondary. I refused to get confirmed and don't think I've set foot in a church other than for weddings/funerals/christenings since. My parents drifted away from the church, and now consider themselves agnostic as best, although my Mum is very involved with her village (non-catholic) church on a community and social level and is described by the vicar as the most Christian non-Christian he has ever met. My brother on the other hand is deeply committed and would have joined the prisethood if they'd have had him, but he's also a raging plastic paddy, whilst I'm thankful for my post-Brexit EU passport alright, but in no way think of myself as actually Irish.

I do love a good church though, especially in Italy, although it makes me cry when you see all the jewellery donated by the poor to the church just so they can display it to inspire piety in others instead of doing Jesus stuff like, you know, feeding the poor. So I loathe the Catholic culture in many ways, but also feel my exposure and knowledge of it has enriched my life?

Anyway, enough about me. I think you need to get to the bottom of how much your partner is culturally catholic as opposed to religiously catholic, as that will make a big difference.

I would be worried one of you will resent the other depending on any decision made. There isn’t a massive compromise here, it’s quite black and white. As I already said I got married in a church including doing the pre marriage course required. My kids are catholic and go to school. I give less than zero shits about it all but I am respectful of his beliefs and those of his family. My kids know I don’t believe and we talk about different beliefs all the time. I wouldn’t recommend getting married and thinking this will resolve itself over time. Best talk about it now heather than find yourself in serious shit in a few years time when kids come along.

Thankyou everyone who left helpful comments I've read every one.

theotherblonde I understand completely, I think there are bad and good churches, Catholic or not, you're right. But children are indoctrinated into religion, you are a product of your environment. Another PP said about letting them decide means leaving them to it. No not for us, I know DP would teach them about religion, take them to mass etc and that's okay, what I'm opposed to is having them attend church every Sunday and complete holy communion because they were pushed to and they believe as a result of being brought up in the midst of it, becuase children are inclined to believe what we tell them.

I don't particularly have any beliefs, I don't find comfort in thinking there's a heaven I may go to, or that my family will. I just believe we're here now, we have short lives, then it ends and we go back into the ground we came from. And so the cycle of life continues. Everyone should be treated with respect and you should do what you feel is right and proper not what's laid out by whoever you follow.

I'll see the priest then take it from there. I can't lie but no don't worry I won't be preaching what I've written here I think this has all poured out of me, some from a place of frustration, becuase I always say the 'right' and courteous thing about it in support but this struck a nerve

There's a disconnect between what you think of the church and what you think of your DP. You're making lots of sweeping statements about a church that your DP grew up in and your statements reflect negatively on him. It sounds as though you're not realising that.

Nobody is asking you to be a martyr. But you somehow think having a baptism in a completely different religion is a compromise. Your knowledge of the church and its history is fairly scant (on what you've posted here) and you sound very resentful even at the thought of being involved with the catholic church. This 'conflict' isn't going to go away.
Relationships are difficult enough without one party feeling there's something that's going to grate on them for a long time. I do think you would benefit from speaking to someone about this in RL and with your DP. No-one on MN can come up with a 'compromise' that will suit your DP. Myself and three of my siblings are all married to non-Catholics. We've all had to navigate it in a way that worked for our personalities and relationships.

I think you're right not to regard it as some kind of deal-breaker, Loulouzz -- it sounds to me (an atheist cradle Catholic married (civilly) to another, with a child we haven't baptised) as if your DP is interested in baptising his child as a form of cultural marker, rather than as any form of declaration of commitment to starting to practice his faith again.

Virtually anything further he wants to do beyond baptism will require work from him -- if he wants to get married in a Catholic church, you will both have to do a pre-marriage course, if he wants your children to go to Catholic schools, he is very likely to have to attend Mass regularly with them for years beforehand, if the school is oversubscribed. If the children don't go to Catholic schools but he wants them to make their First Communion and Confirmation anyway, he will have to take them to special preparation lessons run by a local Catholic church, and commit to church attendance.

If he's not shown any interest in religion since his teens, he's unlikely to be bothered with any of this, so I don't think you need to think of a Catholic baptism as any kind of slippery slope.

I call myself Catholic long family history of Catholicism and oddly enough my catholic education and experience was very modern and progressive. Bible “stories”, “parables”, not facts. Sex Ed, and evolution, Big Bang theory etc.
I always wonder where theses back woods staunch parishes are.

I married a catholic and I would say I am also agnostic. It was made very clear to me from the beginning that any children we have together, DH would want baptised.

It wouldn't have been what I would do, but I have faith in my child to make decisions for himself when he is older about his ideas on religion. I will be honest with my son about what I think and my DH will be too and will make it clear that everyone has different ideas about religion and we're all free to make our own choices on this.

In reality, although my DS is only 2, it has made very little difference in our lives. If anything, I get a morning to myself which I really enjoy!

Like you, i feel my DH and I are perfect for each other and I wasn't going to let this be the reason we didn't progress with our relationship.

I’m with you OP but I would also draw the line at being christened. Religion should be a choice and a child cannot make that rational choice at a young age.

I would also be even more concerned about the Catholic Church than CofE for all of the obviously reasons that you only need to look in the mainstream media almost every day to see.