Leavers being so dead against a second referendum is just proof they know they'll lose, surely?

[stillpinching]

If we had one and they won again it would be the ultimate confirmation that it really is the will of the people.

By refusing to countenance it and describing it as a betrayal they may as well say it's not the will of the people anymore we're insisting on honouring something no one with any sense and without a vested interest wants and we should therefore call it off.

We're being forced into something the people who most support it clearly know is no longer the people's choice that's going to do horrible damage to the country. Just why can no one stop it???

I think an MNetter should have taken GFA into account before they voted. And if they didn't, don't whine about nobody telling them how important membership of the EU is to making GFA work.

Bellinsirge, it’s likely the hard border issues willl be solved through technological means, proof of origin audits. Both sides have committed to not putting a hard border in. Mays deal gives time for this to happen, this deal is temporary, both sides have committed to the temporary nature, its a compromise whilst the more permanent nature of the uk:Eu relationship is finalised which can only happen when we are out of the EU.

As a remainer though I would be interested in how you would solve the following issues of remaining in the EU:

1. Dealing with the inevitable issues that will arise in bringing the stated objective of an ever closer union from the civil law/investigative legal system conflicting with the expectation and processes of the common law/adversarial systems of the small minority of the member states including analysing how this would sit with the increasing application of the fundamental freedoms of the ECJ (as a hint the ECJ have been doing this for years to impact on supposedly sovereign areas)

Secondly could you explain how the future will look with the increased pattern of using opt outs rather than vetos and how this will impact on the future shaping of the economic direction of the EU.

Can you use your crystal ball to tell me what the future of the EU looks like, including quotes from prominent EU politicians indicating how they would like the EU to change in the next 5-10 years time.

Thanks, I’ve got several other questions but these will do for starters. Please note I’ve addressed this to one particular poster who thinks I should have all the answers so interested to hear what they have to say as they obviously do have all the answers😂😂😂

@Lifeover , if you can come up with these technical solutions by 10 April that would be great.
Happy to suck it up and leave. But not crash out. I've been lobbying for WA on here for months. Because I am making a compromise. But no, Leavers on here just assume I want my own unicorns to match theirs.

I think you've missed the point. I've accepted the result. I've said I will support WA to save the achievements of the GFA. The WA is the only thing that does it. If you can't accept that, why are you wasting time on old arguments. I don't want a PV. I don't want Revoke unless there is no alternative. WA is the alternative.
Aren't I doing what Leavers want? Compromising.

I expect Leavers to accept that the NI border is the one issue preventing Brexit. If you haven't got a clue about how to sort it, support WA and let the grown ups try it in the transition period. This constant attempt to blur the only issue with blah blah blah about elitists or whatever simply shows Leavers up.
Own your shit.

Why do I have to answer? I lost. I'm not trying to persuade you of the benefits of staying in the EU. That's an old dead argument. I'm trying to see if you have any idea about how to take this forward. Rather than listen to more whining about people being mean to you.

the unvaried hand gestures, punching home his points indicates they were premeditated not natural

Wow, that's some proper barrel-scraping right there.

Bellinisurge but I have owned my shit. I have answered the question. I absolutely think we should just sign the temporary withdrawal agreement just so we can move forward past all the twats in parliament fucking this country up for their career progression ambitions. Personally my next best alternative would be no deal. I can see why some people find this scarey but it’s better than the prolonged uncertainty.

Tamera, why is pointing out the reading of body language, which actually makes up the majority of communication scraping the barrel? Once again a negative comment with absolutely no basis in critical thinking, just a throw away comment when you can’t actual think of a valid well thought out argument!

Dh says you can't undermine democracy with democracy.

@Lifeover , if both you and I are in favour of WA (as the least worst way to take this forward) that sounds like progress.

well a) because it's a pseudoscience and b) he's skilled in public speaking, of course he's practiced his speech and gestures, that doesn't mean what he is saying is nonsense.

My critical thinking skills have earned me a PhD and senior academic career, btw, so I'll carry on thinking they're OK as they are thanks.

@Gilbert1A , the only thing I am "Hellbent" on is protecting GFA. I'm not trying to keep us in the EU.
I'm tbe sort of Remain voter you want onside. But if you assume that anyone who voted Remain is on homogeneous bogeyman, am I allowed to waste my time doing the same about all Leave voters. Because Yaxley-Lennon is one heck of a Leave bogeyman and I assume you are not like him.

But I don't have to answer. I lost. I accept that. You don't seem to accept winning.

For me the WA is the worst of all worlds.

If we can't solve the issues of the GFA we are tied into the twilight world of the WA long term. We will neither be in nor out of the EU. Forced to comply with their rules but not able to have a say in them and not able to negotiate our own deals either.

We shouldn't be tweaking the WA we should start again without red lines etc.

So what happens if the vote was to leave again? Then what, another revote? National outcry? Or would leave not be an option in a new vote, either remain or remain with glitter and sparkles?

I didn't win the lottery on Saturday so I am going to write to Camelot today. Demand they either repeat the draw until i win or at least give me three numbers as a head start.

Its ridiculous. If remain had won would we have been having mass discussions about how it was unfair and not the right thing? No, it would be long forgotten about by now and leavers would have just had to suck it up.

Tamere, I wouldn’t be so quick to hold out education as being proof of critical thinking, in fact, over the past twenty- thirty years ago I think it’s become the total anthithesis of critical thinking. By the time you get to phd level you will have been conditioned to think in certain ways, even the area you chose for your phd will have been the result of many years of conditioning. When you analyse even the most “revolutionary” position it is often just a reflex against the status quo with actions shaped only by rejecting what is already there rather than bringing anything original to the table.

Body language is a massive part of communication in all species. It’s quite often what enables us to tell whether we can trust someone or not. It tell us a lot about the speaker of the words we are hearing. Unfortunately many people are slowly starting to lose the primeval ability to read body language with the increased use of electronic communication.

Here's my solution. Said it loads. Only people it fucks off is the DUP. I don't care.
Virtual border in the sea. NI is a special economic zone. We leave the EU.

Boiling a complex issue down to an overly-simplistic analogy does not make for a winning argument, Anotherone.

The referendum was not in any way akin to purchasing a lottery ticket.

Glossing over major issues around the corruption associated with the referendum campaigns, and the fact the vote did not ask for a choice to be made on any detail relating to an actual deal (or not), just makes it seem like you don't understand how democracy works.

I think it’s become the total anthithesis of critical thinking

You're right. People have had enough of experts, haven't they?