Leavers being so dead against a second referendum is just proof they know they'll lose, surely?

[stillpinching]

If we had one and they won again it would be the ultimate confirmation that it really is the will of the people.

By refusing to countenance it and describing it as a betrayal they may as well say it's not the will of the people anymore we're insisting on honouring something no one with any sense and without a vested interest wants and we should therefore call it off.

We're being forced into something the people who most support it clearly know is no longer the people's choice that's going to do horrible damage to the country. Just why can no one stop it???

Bellinisurge, I suspect there’s many other things we can agree on, as any intelligent person recognises there are arguments on both sides, it’s a question of weighing up the arguments. Nothing is ever ideal.

What concerns me most is the division that is being stirred up by the powered that be, whilst we’re talking about Brexit it’s taking up parilmentally time that should be taken up by healthcare, education, law and order. Brexit is a convenient diversionary tactic. Whilst politicians tie themselves to anything but Brexit, they will be using it as an excuse for not being able to sort domestic issues for years to come.

I agree, Lifeover, it would be better to just revoke and get back to business, rather than spend the next 10-15 years focussed on negotiating deals and dealing with the economic fallout from leaving.

Virtual border in the sea. NI is a special economic zone. We leave the EU.

As a remainer with a lot of vested interest in NI I personally like that solution.

However, I understand why May wants to avoid fucking over the DUP. They are intransigent bastards and this is an absolute catastrophe in their eyes. How do you propose dealing with the fallout?

What concerns me most is the division that is being stirred up by the powered that be, whilst we’re talking about Brexit it’s taking up parilmentally time that should be taken up by healthcare, education, law and order. Brexit is a convenient diversionary tactic. Whilst politicians tie themselves to anything but Brexit, they will be using it as an excuse for not being able to sort domestic issues for years to come.

That I agree with too Lifeover

What it means @Gilbert1A , is that you are wasting time and energy with attempts at "glory days" - fighting the referendum all over again. The actual winning bit is too hard. So if I ask a question like - how do we solve the one last sticking point : the NI border- you seem to have nothing other than boring snipes at how horrid the EU is.

@LaurieMarlow , there will be inevitable fall out. Which will include the DUP taking the electoral consequences of stopping Brexit or trying to crash us out.
GFA has brought or us trying to bring peace and prosperity to NI. If NI were a special economic zone it actually makes unification with Ireland less likely and less attractive.

ERG cares more about Brexit than the Union. DUP are more for the Union (in their terms) than Brexit.

Im a remainer however if i were a leaver id be wanting the whole shit show cancelled. Its a fucking car crash

Tolleshunt better to spend the next 10 years renegotiating trade deals than the next 50 tied to a political system where we are increasingly margainalised from the decision making!

@Gilbert1A , you asked me:

"1. Dealing with the inevitable issues that will arise in bringing the stated objective of an ever closer union from the civil law/investigative legal system conflicting with the expectation and processes of the common law/adversarial systems of the small minority of the member states including analysing how this would sit with the increasing application of the fundamental freedoms of the ECJ (as a hint the ECJ have been doing this for years to impact on supposedly sovereign areas)

Secondly could you explain how the future will look with the increased pattern of using opt outs rather than vetos and how this will impact on the future shaping of the economic direction of the EU."

None of that matters when we leave. Reads like sniping about defunct arguments to me.

If NI were a special economic zone it actually makes unification with Ireland less likely and less attractive.

I really cannot see anyone selling that to them.

I’m just interested in how this could be managed. I would like to see it happen.

We voted leave and we find it patronising for OP to assume we have changed our minds - we were not swayed by the "facts" in either campaign, so this argument about people would not have voted to leave if they had known "the facts" is also patronising!

Lets do it every time there is a general election, because nobody knows what the "facts" are then - look at David Cameron in the 2010 election, saying that there would be no more top down reorganisations in the NHS.... or the Lib Dems, saying they would not support any more increases in tuition fees. What happened when they formed a coalition?

It would be the end of democracy in this country!

Except we were not marginalised, Lifeover, and being part of the EU gave us more income, and hence more power. We have chosen to marginalise ourselves.

@LaurieMarlow , I have some little experience of the Shenzhen buffer economic zone between Hong Kong (before its end of lease return to China) and China. This gave people the best of both worlds economically. I think if NI had a smarter version of that which made it the springboard into and out of the EU, it might be an attractive idea. Tax breaks too.

YABU the Brexit thread is that way --->

😴

Then why tag me and ask me to use my crystal ball. Or did you want @Lifeover to use their crystal ball.
So many balls.

I never realised how boring people were until brexit. Their ability to moan and witter and bore on about the same topic constantly. Who cares we’re gonna leave with no deal and it’ll be fine.

Oo, @Gilbert1A , you're right. Since then @Lifeover and I appear to have reached an understanding that WA is the least worst option.
Hope you join us.

I think you might be shocked op...only on mn are people wanting to remain. In. Rl most people. I talk to want to leave now. Everyone both remain and leavers voters are fed up with the situation. The trouble is if we had a general election now which looks like it migh be coming ive no idea who i vote for and everything i speech to is saying the same. This whol situation has really effected our democracy.

We will prosper out of the EU, we will prosper with No Deal.
The usual old guff with nothing whatsoever to back it up.

@ChocChocButtons , surely you mean it'll be fiiiiiiinnne

@bellinisurge for the DUP the issue is political and ideological not economic.

Thing is, by the terms of the GFA a hard border between Ireland and NI OR between NI and the UK fucks over one side of the community.

I'd far prefer if it was the Unionist side as the DUP voted for this. However, I have to question whether its fair to them.