Leavers being so dead against a second referendum is just proof they know they'll lose, surely?

[stillpinching]

If we had one and they won again it would be the ultimate confirmation that it really is the will of the people.

By refusing to countenance it and describing it as a betrayal they may as well say it's not the will of the people anymore we're insisting on honouring something no one with any sense and without a vested interest wants and we should therefore call it off.

We're being forced into something the people who most support it clearly know is no longer the people's choice that's going to do horrible damage to the country. Just why can no one stop it???

We don't stand a chance of changing the EU from within now. Even if we revoke it may well be self fulfilling that the EU does go in a direction we could have prevented.

The Danes and the Poles who were our allies are pissed of and embarrassed.

There is not point in playing 'if only' we may end up facing a future in the EU that none of us want, either being in the EU or the nature of the EU because of Brexit.

Well done lads!

Windowsareforcheaters

If you associate with

I do not associate with racists, yet you seem to know how they think and feel.

I do not "give comfort and succour" by any definition but you assume away.

You have refused to respond in any detail to posters on this thread Boney who have asked you questions.

I have answered the questions asked, that you and others do not like the answers is entirely up to you and them.

There is no requirement for a minimum or maximum detail in answers.

I need to hear a mainstream Brexiteer condemning unequivocally and regularly the nasty racist scumbags that are getting heard with a BeLeaver voice.
Not hearing it. Please show me where they are shouting these scumbags down rather than letting them do what they do and say what they say.
Hearing lots of other shit about how the Queen is a traitor and Remainers are Remoaners and elitist twats.

I do not "give comfort and succour" by any definition but you assume away

By supporting Brexit and failing (again) to condemn the racists within the ranks you (general 'you') are supporting them.

"The only thing it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" - misquote I know. The point is if you are part of a group/organisation/movement that has racists in it you need to loudly, clearly and specifically condemn them or you become part of the problem.

Standing silently by and watching it happen is not an excuse and you are guilty by association.

Windowsareforcheaters
By supporting Brexit and failing (again) to condemn the racists within the ranks you (general 'you') are supporting them

I haven't "failed" in anything but if it gives you the point that you require to live your life

I abhor racism and all that goes with it. Including Yaxley-Lennon and all his ilk.

But I won't condemn people (or call them racist) for supporting brexit or condemn people for supporting remain. Because I see both sides of the argument.

As for Brexit itself, I have condemned and called it out for the shitshow that it is many times. You would know that if you had been paying attention.

I'm glad you abhor racism and Yaxley Lennon types. Brexiteers should take back control of their campaign and jump on those bastards. Because, like gilets jaunes in France, what started as a general protest about ordinary people being ignored has turned into a grand day out for all sorts of nasty scumbags.
When I never hear JRM and others jumping on them, I assume they are enabling them.

But I won't condemn people (or call them racist) for supporting brexit

Neither would I.

But I would condemn people who stood quietly by and allowed racists to became the strongest voice in movement I supported. A similar thing is happening in the Labour Party and I condemn that as well.

When I never hear JRM and others jumping on them, I assume they are enabling them exactly as bellinisurge says. And if we assume they are enabling them so do the racists.

Leavers need to take control of their own campaign.

Windowsareforcheaters

Brexit has not been a single cohesive movement since the referendum (or possibly ever), Frankly all it ever was is a loose group of people that voted leave.

If you direct your ire to those that voted then your ire is misdirected, and IMO you should be focusing it on boris, Farage et al. those people that took on a cause with no real beleaf in it and jumped ship allowing these others to step in to the gap that they left.

It doesn't really matter whether you support Brexit or you don't. MPs will act on their own agenda, not what people voted for. They have demonstrated that by going against one of the biggest democratic votes ever, turning it into a complete car crash and making the UK a laughing stock in the process. They have shown us and the rest of the world that the votes and the voice of the British people counts for nothing.

To the remainers gleefully rubbing their hands together and thinking it's great that Brexit is being derailed, just have a think about it. If our MPs can act in the way they have towards Brexit voters, what's going to happen when you next vote on something, become a majority and don't get what you voted for? Won't be as great then, will it?

Who is rubbing their hands with glee ffs. We would be out by now if Brexiteers had been grown ups over the GFA and accepted the WA as the least worst way to fix that conundrum. That is what MPs are trying to do. They aren't pissing on your breakfast for a laugh.

That is not what has happened.

Theresa May has only involved parliament when it is far too late (and she wouldn’t have done it at all if she had had her way). The process parliament is going through now should have begun 2.5 years ago.

It is the executive which has been undemocratic, not parliament. Parliament is doing what parliament should do.

But MPs (like the so called “enemy of the people” Judges) being at fault is a narrative which some papers love, the likes of Arron Banks and Farage use to their advantage, and Theresa May has also encouraged.

Mars - I'd much rather we look stupid and embarrassing on a world stage for a while and learn the lesson from it - than be the small, insular, low tax/high corruption, impoverished island we would be IF a no deal hit us. As it still may.

Johnson and his crew should be in court.

As a Brexiteer I abhor racism. I value controlled immigration, immigrants from ALL OVER THE WORLD have added to the wealth and culture of this country for generations.

What I don't agree with is uncontrolled immigration prioritising mainly white Europeans simply to enable a trading block and as we can only accept a finite amount of immigrants before it starts to affect our public services we need to be able to choose from potential immigrants from ALL OVER THE WORLD to ensure we welcome people who will add the most to the wealth, culture and diversity of this country.

Yes there are racists who voted leave, there are many people with many view points who voted on both sides. Neither side is a homogenous group, no one has responsibility to change anyone else's views simply because they happened to put a tick in the same box.

As a society we have a duty to change these views, but this is nothing to do with Brexit. The link between racism and Brexit is, in reality more to do with the constant labelling of Leavers as racists especially in the initial aftermath of the vote. It was this that made the racist faction think they had found their people with other leavers, because that is the label that kept being put on ALL leavers. It is the viewpoint the BBC initially chose to take - look back at the interviews of the person on the street the BBC have done, compare who they chose to represent the remainers (usually middle class well dressed and spoken) compared with the leaver (usually couldn't string a sentence together except saying something along the lines of they should go back home). This strategy repeatedly validated the racists. The remainers who were playing the racism card basically said that the racist views were shared by 17.4 million voters. Would the racists have felt so validated if leavers had been shown as intelligent people, with real constitutional concerns?

Some remainers really need to start waking up to how the position has been played. Putting a tick next to "Remain in the EU" does not mark them out to be the intellectually and morally superior ones. In truth they have been lied to and played in the last 3 years as much as an leave voter was during the referendum campaign. Its just been done much more subtly, with a message they wanted to hear.

I don't think I'm superior for voting Remain. But I am superior to anyone who lets racists have their say as long as it furthers their cause or gets their cause on telly.
Leavers must know that these twats are taking over their mission. Deal with it by shouting them down. Don't expect me to see past them if they are in my face.

I love the way people seem to think they know exactly what our future holds if a No Deal Brexit happens. As far as I know there are no proven psychics and we haven't nailed time travel yet, so no one can know this for sure. The best anyone can do is speculate and predict. Doesn't make it a guarantee.

Nothing much us mere mortals can do about it at this stage anyway.

Could, would, should... doesn't change what is.

Pretty sure that every legal agreement that depends on us being an EU member coming to an abrupt end and requiring a rewrite/renegotiation is not a good thing. Banking. Food supply. Tedious little things like that.
Is that spooky psychobabble enough for you?

bellinisurge

But I am superior to anyone who lets racists have their say as long as it furthers their cause or gets their cause on telly.

Like the remain campaign that repeatedly brought it to the fore of their tv slots?

What does that mean?

@bellinisurge are you always so condescending? Ah well as long as you're happy hun xx

Exactly what it says, that the remain campaign repeatedly used racism to try and further their cause.

In what way did Remain use racism? I'm genuinely curious.

Why is it condescending to point out the practical legal ramifications of no deal?

bellinisurge

What amazes me is the short term memories of some remainers.

Do you really not remember the sound bites about people being racist if they voted leave?

About how leavers were racist because leaving was all about immigration?

but then some remainers still think that remain led a completely clean and honest campaign.

How is any of that the same as sharing a platform with Yaxley Lennon? Or standing in front of a fake image of refugees like Farage did the day before Jo Cox was murdered?

Tedious little things like that.
Is that spooky psychobabble enough for you?

Pointing out the legal ramifications themselves = not condescending at all.

Those final two lines? Condescending, sarcastic and of absolutely no value.