Leavers being so dead against a second referendum is just proof they know they'll lose, surely?

[stillpinching]

If we had one and they won again it would be the ultimate confirmation that it really is the will of the people.

By refusing to countenance it and describing it as a betrayal they may as well say it's not the will of the people anymore we're insisting on honouring something no one with any sense and without a vested interest wants and we should therefore call it off.

We're being forced into something the people who most support it clearly know is no longer the people's choice that's going to do horrible damage to the country. Just why can no one stop it???

Thunderwing
We still have a veto on all votes which require unanimity.

As has been pointed out there are fewer and fewer opportunities to used the veto.

And under the new system it requires a minimum of 35% of votes to stop new policies going through, we have 17% (i think) and currently block with Germany and a few smaller countries.

I don't recall implying that I would like closer political ties with any country.

Global allies are important. If you move away from some countries, it would be a good idea to move closer to others.

Why would you want to isolate yourself as Russia and China gain power?

Isolationism doesn't work.

Historically when we try for isolationism we get dragged into conflict.

Windowsareforcheaters

On another Brexit thread you accused myself and others of being racist by association due to us being on the same side of a single political choice as racists.

So for all of the racist by association club that you started I say welcome as you have have been politically active on the same issues that I have for a similar length of time.

So congrats by your own words and standards you are a racist.

LaurieMarlow

I haven't mentioned isolating from other countries. there are many other unions to be in other than political ones.

Who do you want as your allies boney?

LaurieMarlow

Political allies?
Trade allies?
Military allies?
Social allies?
Welfare allies?

You choose because you are seeing something in my posts that says much more about you than me.

Ok then, first three

anyone that has the same values. that doesn't require the deep political relationship that the EU wants us in.

So for all of the racist by association club that you started I say welcome as you have have been politically active on the same issues that I have for a similar length of time.

I didn't say anyone was racist if they support a cause with racists in it. My argument is that by supporting an issue like Brexit that has a lot of racists supporting it you are giving comfort and succour to racism.

Can you see the difference? You are not racist but your actions and support helps racists and confirms their views.

I think the point you are making is that I have supported constitutional reform for many years and now leavers are identifying the democratic deficit in the U.K. and want reform I am part of their Venn diagram so therefor I am racist by association. If believing that makes you happy and you think you have scored a point - go for it.

Windowsareforcheaters

The twists and turns of your mind, Using the same argument that was used against you to prove that you are not guilty by association whilst still saying others are.

In short, lie down with dogs and get up with fleas.

the will of the people

🙄

They interviewed a wonderful woman who’s just been awarded the Legion d’Honeur for her part in D day has just been interviewed on the Channel 4 news - worth a watch for anyone wondering why being in the EU is a good idea.

And no, they didn’t interview her twice!

anyone that has the same values

Well I was hoping for actual countries, but it’s clear you haven’t thought about this.

I find it odd. You wanted ‘out’, but didn’t give much thought to where you wanted to be or who would step into the role the EU currently plays.

Don’t you think it’s a good idea for someone to have our back when Putin starts swinging his dick around? The EU did that kind of thing for us.

@BoneyBackJefferson

Using the same argument that was used against you to prove that you are not guilty by association whilst still saying others are.

I think my arguments are clear. Supporting a cause that has a strong racist element does NOT make you racist. However, you have given comfort and support to racists. Racists feel validated by the cause you share.

If you feel racists will feel validated by my support for electoral reform, a republic and a written constitution you are perfectly entitled to that opinion. Knock yourself out and enjoy winning the point. I didn't argue the point I conceded it - not sure why you are still trying to prove me wrong.

Not sure how many racist Brexit supporters will join me in fighting for a Republic.

Caedmon, the 'will of the people' can rapidly translate into the power of the mob. Be careful what you wish for.

LaurieMarlow
Well I was hoping for actual countries, but it’s clear you haven’t thought about this.

Its clear that you are stuck on the term political. And if life teaches you anything its that you don't always get what you want.

But as cheaters says if it makes you happy to think that way.

Windowsareforcheaters

I think my arguments are clear. Supporting a cause that has a strong racist element does NOT make you racist. However, you have given comfort and support to racists. Racists feel validated by the cause you share

If I have given "comfort and support to racists" by association then so have you, but if it doesn't fit your image of yourself then maybe you should rethink your argument.

Not sure how many racist Brexit supporters will join me in fighting for a Republic.

Probably the same amount as remain supporters.

not sure why you are still trying to prove me wrong.

Either your point stands for all or its a rubbish point

Windows how will being a republic redistribute power?
Re restricting the elite, won’t there just be a different elite like in Soviet Russia?

Never one to rely on internet heresay by those with vested interests I’ve gone back to basics and read the TFEU. There’s a lot of talk about the loss of veto, this is effectively true with moves from unanimity you to qualified majorities, the protocols setting out the position re the opt outs of the uk from the EURO and schengen understandably exclude the UK from large areas of participation, areas the relevant articles of the treaty make clear are a growing focus of the EU. The treaty is filled with language about economic, social and defence policies. It’s difficult to see how the detailed provisions of judicial cooperation can be achieved with the civil/investagative and common law/adversarial system split in the long term. I’m not really convinced about how maintainable the homeaffair/justice etc opt out is again another area where the EUis moving forward and were likely to be left behind (indeed we have been opting in to relevant bits of legislation on a piecemeal basis)
Sovereignty in relation to taxation isundoubtably in question.

For many the TFEU shows the direction of travel of the EU and it certainly isn’t heading to a destination I want to visit let alone live in.

I really wish people would go back to primary sources rather than relying on google/bbc

If the UK elects MEPs who actually engage with the EU
who attend the committee meetings they are paid for
who read and reply to the consultations
then we might get an EU that better meets British needs

electing folks who refused to do the job they were paid for has gone wrong
in late May we get a chance to change the EU from within

Dapplegrey

My desire for a republic gets very little support unfortunately . The republic I envisage will be more like France than Soviet Russia. More of a democracy than a communist dictatorship kind of set up.

Boney you really have a bee in your bonnet don't you, I must have really pissed you off. Sorry about that.

If I have given "comfort and support to racists" by association then so have you

The difference is if both you and a racist like cats, the fondness for cats does not overlap with the racism. Unless they specify the colour of the cat. Just liking the same thing at the same time is not quite the point.

Brexit and racism unfortunately have a large overlap, although I must make it clear that does not mean all people who support Brexit are racist. The extreme Brexit supporters are racist and consider all support for Brexit as validating their views.

Constitutional reform does not at the moment seem to have a large vocal following of racists. Some Brexit supporters are identifying the democratic deficit in the U.K. as a cause for concern. When I hear Yaxley-Lennon demanding an inalienable Bill of Rights I will actually be a bit pleased. I think I may have a long wait though.

TalkinPaece

I agree but that would also mean that the potential MEPs would actively campaign for office and also lets us know what is going on.

The first time that I know who I am voting for in the elections for the MEPs is because I have looked it up.