Leavers being so dead against a second referendum is just proof they know they'll lose, surely?

[stillpinching]

If we had one and they won again it would be the ultimate confirmation that it really is the will of the people.

By refusing to countenance it and describing it as a betrayal they may as well say it's not the will of the people anymore we're insisting on honouring something no one with any sense and without a vested interest wants and we should therefore call it off.

We're being forced into something the people who most support it clearly know is no longer the people's choice that's going to do horrible damage to the country. Just why can no one stop it???

Apologies if this has been posted before, but I thought it was very powerful. And I'd love to hear a leavers perspective on it.

www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/

@Eateneasterchocsalready

If that's not dictatorial fascist mentality I don't know what is and it's this aspect that greatly worries me

Fascists are actually very fond of referenda as they can be used to manipulate people. A seemingly simple question can be used to harden public opinion. Referenda are very, very tightly controlled in Germany as they were used by Hitler to secure power.

More democracy, more opportunities to express opinion, more debate is the exact opposite of facism.

I wonder if they realise they’re backing us into a corner, those that don’t want unending tides of third world rapists

I have zero hope in us being able to fix this country via the ballot box anymore

Caedmon89

If I point out that these posts are supporting the end to democracy and certainly indicates a low level of racism and that it is a leaver saying this will I get shouted out.

If Remainers call leavers anti democratic and racist we are wrong , what do we do if they out themselves?

Having to conjure the spectre of Hitler to dissuade people from direct democracy. Wow, you ever listen to yourself?

This seems endemic within the establishment, Populism, literally ‘favouring ordinary people over the elites’, is dismissed as the exclusive realm of fascists and the bigoted.
Why do you fear the will of the people? Is it that you know deep down that what is being pushed by the establishment isn’t actually what the people want?

@Windowsareforcheaters You are welcome to highlight anyone, Leaver or Remainer posting racist stuff. You are not welcome to extrapolate it to all Leavers or Remainers.

to hell with over half the population rejecting it

You mean 37% of the electorate.

HTH

TalkinPaece Thunderwing

I have no idea which list you are on about, but personally I would like political ties with the EU.

Have they debunked that?

should be

I would like fewer political ties with the EU

Why though? I don't understand what the EU does that impinges on our freedoms, or how it is to the detriment of our country. Our government is sovereign... I'd love to have some more of the things I'm used to from Germany but I live in Scotland now so different countries, different rules no?

Btw, the 'list' refers to an oft shared social media post about how we lose our veto in 2020, have to sign up to the euro in 2022 etc all under the Lisbon treaty apparently. Seeing as the Lisbon treaty has been in effect since 2009 this has been widely debunked.

The loss of the veto has been widely talked about on these threads and from reading about it it seems to be true. Isn't the EU bringing in another voting system?

From fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/

Claim: The UK along with all existing members of the EU lose their abstention veto in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon Treaty when the system changes to that of majority acceptance with no abstentions or veto’s being allowed.
This is wrong. The Lisbon Treaty did make changess to how EU law gets passed which reduced the scope of states’ veto ability, but it did not abolish veto powers; and these changes are already in effect, rather than coming into force in 2020. The term “abstention veto” is not a part of European Union law (as you can see by the fact that most Google resultss for the term are references to this list.)
EU legislation has to be approved by the Council of the European Unionn_, which is made up of ministerial representatives of the governments of all EU member states.
Depending on the type of issue it is voting on, it has three different standards for passing laws—a simple majorityy (where 15 out of the 28 states must agree); “qualified majorityy” (where laws must be approved by at least 55% of states, that have to represent at least 65% of the EU’s population); and a unanimous votee_ (where all voting states must agree, which therefore gives any single government a veto over the law.)
The Lisbon Treaty changed a large number of policy areas from being ones that needed unanimity (thus giving states a veto) to ones that were decided by qualified majority. At the same time, the Lisbon Treaty changed how qualified majority voting worked—this actually gave the UK slightly more voting power than it had before through the link with a country’s population, which is widely seen as having benefited large countriess_ such as the UK, France and Germany.
The UK also doesn’t have to participate in EU legislation relating to justice and home affairs, but can choose to opt-inn_ if it wants to.
It’s not clear what is meant by the claim that the Lisbon Treaty would see states losing their “abstention veto”. On issues that require unanimity, it’s the case that simply abstaining from a vote does not stop it passingg_ (the Lisbon Treaty did not change this), but states can still veto by voting against.

Sorry, that's a mess, copied and pasted on my phone.

The link explains it all:

fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/

So where they have changed laws from unanimity to qmv they have effectively removed the veto.

The man’s a coward who’d do anything to avoid a little turbulence, willing to have his homeland subsumed into a EU super-state for the benefit of the all-supreme GDP.

Wow. So you aren’t interested in engaging with his points then?

I wonder if they realise they’re backing us into a corner, those that don’t want unending tides of third world rapists

Have I misunderstood this post caedmon are you in some way linking us being part of the EU with the global movement of refuges ? We aren't going to move geographical location when we leave the EU, neither are our international responsibilities to refugees going to change.

I would like fewer political ties with the EU

Why?

I can’t think of any global issue we would be radically opposed on.

And in any event, we have always been a powerful member of the block with our own say.

Who would you like closer ties with?

I can't get my own head around people bemoaning fascists when they want to overturn a referendum.
If that's not dictatorial fascist mentality I don't know what is and it's this aspect that greatly worries me.

Hyperbole'R'Us...

Thank goodness we don't have any uk born rapists, eh?

The Lisbon treaty has been in effect for 10 years now, and moving some policy areas to qmv has actually largely been to the uk's benefit as we have slightly more voting power than we did before.

We still have a veto on all votes which require unanimity.

Nothing changes in 2020.

Well, quite. But as we have enough of our own there's no real reason to import any surely?

We still have a veto on all votes which require unanimity.
Yes but those issues are getting less.

Isn't one of the issues taxation? So quite a big issue if we have to implement it.

Having to conjure the spectre of Hitler to dissuade people from direct democracy. Wow, you ever listen to yourself?

I don't want to be childish (but what the hell) you're the one who brought up the spectre of facism, I just added a little bit of constitutional and historical detail for context.

Direct democracy is not fully implemented anywhere because it doesn't work and leads to the tyranny of the majority.

I'm also getting increasingly pissed off with posters who discovered the democratic deficit in the U.K. yesterday lecturing those of us who have been campaigning against it for years.

Reform of FPTP
An elected upper chamber
A written constitution
A inalienable Bill of Rights
A republic
An elected Head of State
Proper judicial review
Clear checks and balances

These reforms will restrict the elite and redistribute power. It's a shame all the posters who have just discovered this haven't been campaigning and voting for it for years in which case we might not be in this god awful mess.

LaurieMarlow

Who would you like closer ties with?

I don't recall implying that I would like closer political ties with any country.