Leavers being so dead against a second referendum is just proof they know they'll lose, surely?

[stillpinching]

If we had one and they won again it would be the ultimate confirmation that it really is the will of the people.

By refusing to countenance it and describing it as a betrayal they may as well say it's not the will of the people anymore we're insisting on honouring something no one with any sense and without a vested interest wants and we should therefore call it off.

We're being forced into something the people who most support it clearly know is no longer the people's choice that's going to do horrible damage to the country. Just why can no one stop it???

One of the major reasons why we are in a deadlock is because if it where to be revoked, there is a potential for obvious documented mental gymnastic hoops that some have to go through.

We are in a situation where the dyed in the wool lefty are citing multinationals as to why it would be bad for the UK GDP whilst white washing those same multi nationals making the same warnings during the last GE if Corbyn was elected as being fooled by propoganda.

The politicians have made their career at these non answers, the electorate and us remainers are included. There is going to be highlighting of hypocrisies going forward.

It is not hollow it is constitutionally correct.

That’s not the point though. It was spoken about as if it was binding. Cameron promised to implement it. Nothing has been seriously suggested by the government in the last 2+ years to suggest anything otherwise.

Going back on that would be extremely difficult politically.

Spoken as the staunchest of staunch remainders who would genuinely like to see Cameron done for treason.

It is not hollow it is constitutionally correct.

I am getting increasingly depressed with the British Publics inability to differentiate between constitutional legality and their own opinions.

It was advisory.
We have representatives not delegates.
The EU is democratic.

These are facts not opinions.
Yes, I am fully aware that constitutional and legally, the Referendum was advisory. However, it was made abundantly clear by both campaigns and the government that the outcome would be respected and acted upon.

Having a costly and contentious referendum, then pulling the rug from under the electorate's feet by saying 'well it was only advisory so, in spite of what was said, we're going to ignore the result' would be ludicrous.

If Leave had won, and Farrage or some other clown had tried the "well it's only advisory" line, I'd laugh. The argument doesn't sound any better coming from fellow Remain voters.

At no time before the Referendum did I, or I doubt anyone else, sense that the whole exercise was just one really-thorough and hotly-contended opinion poll.

Windowsareforcheaters
Well thanks for telling me what I think

I am not telling you what you think. I am saying that by the standards of your own rhetoric about what the 16 year olds will vote for, you are essentially loading the deck in your favour.

Its very simple, a second referendum creates the precedent that if the result is not favoured by our overlords they will retake it.
Remain was very clear about what Leave would mean, something along the lines of ‘apocalypse’ I believe, and Leave still won out.
By now, 2 years on, any downside of a WTO Brexit would’ve likely passed but as it is they’ve decided to sit on the precipice, unsure if it’s a 6” drop or 60’.
In the end a democracy cannot abide a ‘redo’ because it never ends. Every time the aggrieved loser can demand another. And another. And another...

By now, 2 years on, any downside of a WTO Brexit would’ve likely passed
That is incredibly unlikely and, in any event, a WTO Brexit wasn't on the ballot paper - the paper published by the government as legally required by the Referendum Act made clear that, in the event of a Leave vote, we would seek to negotiate a deal that gave us access to the Single Market. The Leave Campaign literature that has twice been posted in this thread also advocated for a deal. Having a no-deal Brexit would itself be a betrayal of the Referendum.

Leave won. We will eventually get a No Deal, life goes on.

An assumption here, and life might go on for you, but it will be a lot harder for many.

FFS.

However, it was made abundantly clear by both campaigns and the government that the outcome would be respected and acted upon.

Yes and this is why we are in the awful situation we are in now.

Still we probably have the politicians we deserve, and maybe our best hope lies in the future and the generations that have not yet reached adulthood.

Like this young Italian denouncing intolerance. We need many more like him.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/italy-fascists-video-boy-teenager-italy-roma-protests-a8857431.html%3famp

The rule is there for valid reasons

and what, pray, are those given that most of Europe has lifelong voting for expats?

no-one was blethering about the ref being advisory in the immediate aftermath. it's only now it's become blindingly obvious what a clusterfuck it is people are pointig out we don't HAVE to shoot ourselves in the foot.

Boney

I am saying that by the standards of your own rhetoric about what the 16 year olds will vote for, you are essentially loading the deck in your favour

But the point is I have long supported votes for 16 year olds. The fact it may well help a remain vote is coincidental not causal.

Everyone seems to think politics started with Brexit. I have supported reform of the electoral system including votes for 16 year olds for over 30 years and now every comment I make is seen through the optics of Brexit. So many opinions are being spouted by people who have become constitutionally aware in the last 3 years and every long held belief is seen as starting with Brexit.

Yes giving votes to 16 year olds would help a remain vote but that is not why I support it.

The issue remains fairness. The electoral system is fundamentally tinkering with who can vote is the least of the problems really.

Having seen how utterly useless the WTO is at the moment negotiating between Trump and anybody
only the utterly uninformed can think that it will work for the UK

I'm going to start sounding like @Rufusthebewilderedreindeer before long

Windowsareforcheaters

Everyone seems to think politics started with Brexit.

Really everyone?

I have supported reform of the electoral system including votes for 16 year olds for over 30 years and now every comment I make is seen through the optics of Brexit.

Its really not hard to understand when we are on a Brexit thread.

So many opinions are being spouted by people who have become constitutionally aware in the last 3 years

this isn't a bad thing, although your choice of term "spouting" is somewhat telling

and every long held belief is seen as starting with Brexit.

This is your opinion. Not everyone else's.

Like this young Italian denouncing intolerance. We need many more like him.

Indeed, if there's one thing I can't tolerate it's .....er.......

Regarding the original message, I assume Brexiteers would say you don't have to win a bet twice. The argument in favour of a new referendum, in my view, is only that the arguments put forward before the first one are now shown to be based on lies and some foreign propaganda.

Well, according to that bastion of the right, the Telegraph, this morning a confirmatory vote is looking increasingly likely, the only viable alternative is seen to be revoke because only the ERG will vote for no deal.

I can't get my own head around people bemoaning fascists when they want to overturn a referendum.
If that's not dictatorial fascist mentality I don't know what is and it's this aspect that greatly worries me.

only the utterly uninformed can think that it will work for the UK

This encompasses both politicians and the public. The lack of knowledge about fairly simple things re trade is a national embarrassment, esp when our elected folk do not know the basics of customs unions, tariffs, supply lines, the documentation involved, WTO basis etc.

Revoke and educate ourselves.

Just noted on twitter, a British PM is flying to Berlin to ask a German Chancellor for assistance in allowing us more time, so we don't totally fuck ourselves. Makes Suez look like V.E. Day.

I’m not sure that many people want to overturn a referendum; just check that the country still wants in 2019 what it voted for in 2016. You know, like we do in general elections. The European election results should be interesting.

Makes Suez look like V.E. Day

Yep. It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so tragic.

This Tory government will go down as the most incompetent of the modern era.

I keep seeing comments from people all over social media, and this thread, about "possible implications of the Lisbon treaty"

I assume that this is the Lisbon Treaty that was agreed by all EU member countries including the UK in 2007, came into force in 2009, and has been in place ever since...

I can't get my own head around people bemoaning fascists when they want to overturn a referendum.

What is undemocratic about more voting - genuine question.

I personally think another referendum might be even more divisive and vicious than the last one, but can’t see how it would be undemocratic.

More facts are known, and public opinion would again be tested.

Surely what matters most is that people aren’t poorer than they already are? The Rees-Moggs of this saga have a lot to answer for.

Thunderwing
and that fake Lisbon list has been TOTALLY debunked by both Fullfact and the Government Petitions website

It has, and yet I still hear people talk about it like it's 100% fact.

See also; control of our laws, borders and money/GATT Article 24

Unfortunately it's not even just your average joe on the street who could be excused for not knowing any different, the utterly scandalous thing is it's coming from MP's and political commentators who should know better and no-one is calling them out on their bullshit.