Leavers being so dead against a second referendum is just proof they know they'll lose, surely?

[stillpinching]

If we had one and they won again it would be the ultimate confirmation that it really is the will of the people.

By refusing to countenance it and describing it as a betrayal they may as well say it's not the will of the people anymore we're insisting on honouring something no one with any sense and without a vested interest wants and we should therefore call it off.

We're being forced into something the people who most support it clearly know is no longer the people's choice that's going to do horrible damage to the country. Just why can no one stop it???

I suspect May might be gearing up for a second referendum. She has tried to get her Deal through Parliament several times. I suspect the discussions with Labour are more PR than anything. When she fails to pass he Deal via any other avenue, why not put it to the public, whilst maintaining it was her last resort and she absolutely wanted Parliamen to follow the first referendum and 'deliver Brexit'. If it won, I'm sure the ERG and enough Labour Brexiteers would fall in line behind it.

I agree the demographics speak for themselves but if you take this to its next logical conclusion its been 3 years since the original vote. surely some that voted to stay then will now have aged themselves into the vote leave category? or are you discounting that possibility - that remain voters are just as likely to have changed their minds due to age. If you are going to be ageist then see it through to its logical conclusion at least.

mummymeister

Apologies, sarcasm on my part.

I agree on both counts that there were lies on both sides.
and that people should go look up the future of the EU in its own words, especially as I posted earlier the Lisbon treaty.

and why are the voters who voted leave relevant and the others not?
No one is saying that; but it is statistically very likely that more Leave voters have passed away since the Referendum than Leave voters. That translates into a probable drop in support for Leave relative to Remain.

That young people who could not vote in the Referendum break strongly for Remain would also result in a net gain for Remain relative to Leave if another Referendum is held.

Would that prove decisive? No idea. Is it a good enough reason alone to re-run the vote? Nope. But Remainers probably are correct to say that the passage of time since the last vote means a shift towards Remain.

mummymeister Curtice's findings were that around 7% of Leave voters had switched to Remain, and 8% of Remain voters had switched to Leave.

My gosh, people insisting that no one has told us what is likely to happen if and when we leave! Of course plenty have, the Airbus chief, MI5 spokesperson, NHS England are just some of the people in a position to know who have spoken very clearly about the likely impact on their particular sectors if we leave. They are not in the business of producing propaganda. Yet people still feel like we don't know what will happen and that it will probably all be fine!?

And someone just upthread thinks jrm won't be pm because he has the Eton millstone round his neck?! Jesus, do people know anything at all about this country?

And David Lammy shouldn't be trusted because, er, he sounded like he knew what he was talking about and had clearly thought about it before? Like that's a bad thing for a public speaker/ politician to do. Oh, and his body language wasn't right and that would of course tell us far more than his actual words....
And politians are just trying to further their careers? Some are I'm sure, but there are remainers going against their constituents' views and others who have left the two main parties in our unforgiving fptp two party system. How the fuck are they benefitting their careers - unless of course you do think the country at large has swung to remain?

I agree the demographics speak for themselves but if you take this to its next logical conclusion its been 3 years since the original vote. surely some that voted to stay then will now have aged themselves into the vote leave category? or are you discounting that possibility - that remain voters are just as likely to have changed their minds due to age. If you are going to be ageist then see it through to its logical conclusion at least.
I don't think your assertion logically follows. People born in, let's say 1940, were more likely to vote Leave than people born in 1943. I don't think there's anything to suggest that people born in 1943 who voted Remain will now flip to supporting Leave in the same ratio as the 1940-born voted last time.

It's just like how social attitudes to things like homosexuality change over time. When the older generation, who were more opposed to it, pass away, the next generation don't suddenly change their views to match the previous.

I know there's evidence that people become more right wing as they age, but I don't think there's a correlation with leave v remain. As the last few years have shown, there are leavers and remainers on both sides of the house.

have a look at the previous page. that's precisely what they said
I've read back and can't see that; the most I can see if a gross exaggeration that most Leave voters have likely now passed away.

stillpinching

How the fuck are they benefitting their careers - unless of course you do think the country at large has swung to remain?

Have you not thought this through longer than to post a fucking emote?

Those in charge are a shitshow. If you can't see how separating from the rubbish that is going on benefits them, then you have no sense.

Gilbert I get the homosexual analogy perfectly. The younger generation are generally far more liberal thank God.

@Queen - I will give one of the things that will happen if we leave, but that is because it is happening already.

The farming industry relies heavily on migrant workers and there are far fewer of them this year. I am not going to blame it all on Brexit - weakening of the pound means the wages are not as fantastic as they were before it weakened (although that was down to Brexit) - but farms are reporting fewer migrant workers coming to the UK this year because of the uncertainty and fears over Brexit.

For example, it is daffodil season down here in Cornwall, but farms do not have the workers they need to pick them all, so a lot of the flowers are dying before being picked. It will cause the cost to go up, but also hit the farmer's revenue hard.

Before anyone says 'all those migrants coming over to steal our jobs' etc, apparently the farm (it was a news story in the local paper) takes on 60 workers each year, but they only got 10 applications from locals of which they look on 8, only 2 turned up and neither lasted the whole of their first week!

So distancing themselves from a 'shit-show' is morally reprehensible because they may, at some distant point, be able to step in? I don't know what other choice people have got than to distance themselves and try to effect change if they see a disaster unfurling. They certainly weren't being listened to in the positions they were in.

The referendum was a catastrophic error of judgement.

If there is ever another vote it should be

• legally binding
• have clear margin boundaries
• have clear turnout limits
• have VERY strict rules about advertising and social media that would result in the result being void if they were broken

I'm still utterly mystified at the farming vote to leave I must say..

A few months ago there was a report in the media that the number of people who had died since the referendum was matched by the number of young people now old enough to vote.

The Joseph Rowntree Foundation (charity) analysis of voter habits in the referendum showed a clear correlation between education and voting habits. Young or old, the more education you have had the less likely you were to vote leave.

The report also showed the correlation between voting to leave and supporting capital punishment and opposing gender equality.

Makes for interesting reading.

CornishMaid1

You are ignoring the history of why farms rely on immigrant workers.
When I was growing up, in rural areas these jobs were the jobs that many local families did.

Unfortunately the farmers decided to outsource the jobs to work gangs as they were not subject to the agricultural minimum wage, they and the gang masters could under pay the workers, take a large sum for themselves and pat themselves on the back for sending cheaper goods to market.

Now that workforce is going, the local workers have long memories and of course they have gone on to different jobs.

I'm still utterly mystified at the farming vote to leave I must say..

I guess they think the CAP is nuts. Or maybe they're thick/racist .

Cottonwood

Hard headed thinking went out of the window and fell off the cliff.

I think they assumed that the government would match any subsides.

Christ knows why, but anecdotally that seems to be the case.

stillpinching
So distancing themselves from a 'shit-show' is morally reprehensible because they may, at some distant point, be able to step in?

I didn't say that it was "morally reprehensible" (although personal gain etc.)

You asked how they could possibly gain and I have answered,

Why do you want to change the parameters of the question?

Alaskan I've never accused a leaver of being t or r in real life or on here, not once and I've been on tons of Brexit threads under different names for ages. I won't even type the words as Ithink they are awful. I just don't understand why if so much of the labour comes from the EU that you would cut off that source of labour? I don't believe for one second that the locals are staying away in droves due to some long harboured grudge over work gangs either.

Cottonwood

Its because the locals have new jobs and are no longer reliant on the farm work. Your browser must have cut off the last part of my post.