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Leavers being so dead against a second referendum is just proof they know they'll lose, surely?

530 replies

stillpinching · 07/04/2019 13:14

If we had one and they won again it would be the ultimate confirmation that it really is the will of the people.

By refusing to countenance it and describing it as a betrayal they may as well say it's not the will of the people anymore we're insisting on honouring something no one with any sense and without a vested interest wants and we should therefore call it off.

We're being forced into something the people who most support it clearly know is no longer the people's choice that's going to do horrible damage to the country. Just why can no one stop it???

OP posts:
stillpinching · 08/04/2019 17:49

BoneyBackJefferson I'm not trying to change the parameters of the question, it's just that I doubt that any of the politicians I'm thinking of were motivated most by ambition when they took the various actions they did over the last few months. There are far too many uncertainties for them to be sure of benefitting and it's just as likely, imo, that their careers may suffer. I mean does Dominic Grieve strike you as a rampant careerist?

OP posts:
Cottonwood · 08/04/2019 17:50

Laurie yes possibly, but even if the subsidies were forthcoming that doesn't help with recruiting the actual labour. The value of £ fell also making it less attractive to work here and who would really want to work somewhere thinking your country of employ had soundly rejected you through a referendum.

Cottonwood · 08/04/2019 17:53

Ok Boneyback I do have to question why farming didn't as an industry, automate so much of this repetitive work rather than relying on cheap foreign labour.

BoneyBackJefferson · 08/04/2019 18:04

Cottonwood

A lot of the process can't be automated fully.
Daff picking more precise than you would think, a set length with a set angle at the bottom of the stem. (ignoring that farmers can reject and keep incorrectly cut daffs)

A lot of the produce can be damaged by machines when being stripped off the stems (brussel sprouts are a good example of this as are coli-flowers).

The current drive is for robots to be developed for harvesting, they include not only visual sensors but pressure sensors to be able to prevent the damage to brassicas and fruits, whilst taking in to account the non uniform nature of actual growing plants.

www.cnbc.com/2018/03/08/wave-of-agriculture-robotics-holds-potential-to-ease-farm-labor-crunch.html but it requires forward thinking farmers that are happy to invest in new technologies.

Lifeover · 08/04/2019 18:05

Mummymeisters views are actually spot on. Please educate yourselves on the direction of travel for the EU. Please consider what our future relationship with the EU will look like if we remained. This is a lot more relevant than the current agreement. Educate yourselves beyond sound bites then make up your minds on how the IK would fit into the likely structure of the EU in 5.10,15,50 years time, socially, economically, legally, politically and culturally. People talk about thinking of the futures of the youngsters but often measure this against the EU as it is now. Remainers have been sold aloe about retaining the safety of what we have now. Stay or leave that safety of familiarity will go.

EggysMom · 08/04/2019 18:07

Oh for heaven's sake.
Have another bloody referendum then.
If 'Leave' wins again, will remainers then FINALLY SHUT UP?
Or will they go for best of five next?

Windowsareforcheaters · 08/04/2019 18:12

EggysMom democracy is an ongoing process. Brexit will be debated for decades. Democracies allow for people changing their mind either way.

If there is another referendum and remain wins obviously the debate can't stop. At the very least we need a public enquiry and possible a People’s' Parliament.

I want revoke. I also want electoral reform an end to party politics and serious consideration of our relations ship with the EU.

Some people think revoke or a third referendum will end the debate, these people are foolish in the extreme.

HerSymphonyAndSong · 08/04/2019 18:13

“If 'Leave' wins again, will remainers then FINALLY SHUT UP?
Or will they go for best of five next?”

Like leavers shut up after the vote in the 70s to be in the EU?

Alsohuman · 08/04/2019 18:19

Farage said before the vote that if leave lost with a small margin he wouldn't rest until there was another one. Odd how these things are expected to only work one way.

HerSymphonyAndSong · 08/04/2019 18:27

The way to make everyone shut up about it is to revoke. Otherwise remainers are going to be saying “we told you so” and leavers are going to be saying “I wish everyone would just stop going on about it” for decades

BoneyBackJefferson · 08/04/2019 18:30

HerSymphonyAndSong
The way to make everyone shut up about it is to revoke.

You are missing something obvious here.

Caztonette · 08/04/2019 19:34

Oh for heaven's sake.
Have another bloody referendum then.
If 'Leave' wins again, will remainers then FINALLY SHUT UP?
Or will they go for best of five next?

I don't speak for all Remainers, but if a second referendum ended up supporting May's Deal (or whatever other version of Brexit ends up on the ballot), and consequently breaks the deadlock in parliament, I'd shut up about it.

Although Remain would ultimately become 'Rejoin', no doubt, particularly if our economy does as badly as expected.

Lifeover · 08/04/2019 19:56

Hersymphony without using and remainers soundbites please explain why we should just revoke and ignore the majority of the people who voted. Just to save time I’ll answer some of your predictable comments below:

The referendum was advisory - we were promised it would be acted upon, it has been acted upon therefore parliament itself has accepted the advise and put through legislation to come out of the EU

We didn’t say what kind of Brexit - no this wasn’t discussed in detail but one of the main arguments was to stop uncontrolled immigration which removes most alternatives to what has been termed a hard nasty evil unfeeling Brexit as opposed to a nice gentle fluffy soft one (see how we have been quietly brain washed by language here over the last three years.) Tbh I think most people would have predicted we would just leave (now emotively termed crashing out) then negotiate new terms with the EU. Technically we might be able to have a customs union but it ties our hands in respect of one of the many advantages to Brexit - see most recently the EU Japan customs deal which benefits mainly France and Germany and penalises countries where japan have made large inward investments in the auto industry.

But the bus.... tbh I can’t actually remember the bus. But it had a low quote of the gross figure sent to the EU and likely to be the real figure if we revoke as it’s unlikely our heavily negotiated rebate would be reinstated if we went crawling back. And yes we should be funding the NHS instead of the EU who really do not have our backs

We now have more facts about the position - actually we don’t. The institution we have voted to leave is still the same, with the same vision for its future, the same political and legal system and the same economics. We still don’t know what our future deal will be, we have details on what the deal they will give us to cover the temporary transition period whilst we sort out the actual relationship, obviously totally different things

But bigger is better, not always it isn’t if the other members are so very different from us in terms of economies legal systems and politics. But just in case you’re worried about us being lonely we are still members of the commonwealth with out joint head of state - this is about 1/3of the worlds population of o recall correctly. We’re still members of nato the g8 etc.

I pressure you have moved beyond the thick and racist comments.

The GFA no one is putting a hard border there, despite threats no one will
Breach an international peace treaty, the WA does deal with it - poorly but it’s there to give us time to sort the issue with technology. May has said in a no deal situation we will not put a hard border there the EU will have to sort if it wants one. The Eu will not breach and international peace treaty, or do you think they are that ruthless?

Russia funded the leave campaign - the Uk government funded the remain campaign so both sides were state sponsored then!

The leave campaign was based on lies. - so unlike the remain side which sold the position that we would be better off with the status quo but with no explanation even if we stayed that status quo would change

But we will end up with a recession - if I recall correctly we should have been in recession for the past 3 years. Obviously we would never be in recession as members of the Eu. The economy is cyclical with intermittent recessions which could be triggered by a number of things where the pressure has built up.

Caztonette · 08/04/2019 20:04

Lifeover-

How about:

Theresa May has failed for 2 years to get her Deal through Parliament. The ERG, DUP and some Labour MPs are willing to pass other versions of Brexit, but not May's. When indicative votes have been used, whilst other models have done better than May's, none commanded a majority in the Commons.

If a second referendum had a concrete version of Brexit on it, which MPs were obliged to enact if it won, then parliamentary deadlock would be broken and Brexit would finally happen (or Remain wins, and it doesn't).

The only other, realistic means of breaking the deadlock seems to be a general election, but even that would likely return a minority government, based on recent polling, so could well leave us in the sameness position.

ContinuityError · 08/04/2019 20:43

ITbh I think most people would have predicted we would just leave (now emotively termed crashing out) then negotiate new terms with the EU.*

Funny, that’s not what the official Vote Leave campaign promised at all.

Leavers being so dead against a second referendum is just proof they know they'll lose, surely?
ContinuityError · 08/04/2019 20:56

But just in case you’re worried about us being lonely we are still members of the commonwealth with out joint head of state - this is about 1/3of the worlds population of o recall correctly.

The UK exports nearly five times as much to the EU than to the Commonwealth. Most of the countries involved are small; almost all of them are far from the UK.

No way will trade with the Commonwealth come anywhere close to replicating trade with the EU.

Not to mention TM’s recoil from India’s demand’s for more visas.

HerSymphonyAndSong · 08/04/2019 21:02

Lifeover you missed the point. I was responding to the “just want it over with” attitude that you hear a lot from leave and remain voters all over the country, though less likely on this thread as people here are more engaged. I’m sure your long post completely sums up many remainers’ POVs and thoroughly trumps their views, but it isn’t anything to do with my post.

Clavinova · 08/04/2019 21:04

*stillpinching
I doubt that any of the politicians I'm thinking of were motivated most by ambition when they took the various actions they did over the last few months ... I mean does Dominic Grieve strike you as a rampant careerist?

No, but his reasons may be much more personal and heartfelt than that;

Embassy of France in London November 2016

Dominic Grieve QC MP has been awarded the Légion d’honneur by Ambassador Bermann during a ceremony at the French Residence, Kensington.

The MP "has a long-standing personal connection to France, and serves currently as President of the Franco-British Society as well as Vice-Chairman of the Franco-British Council"

“Cher Dominic, you provide a vital link between our two countries, which know each other so well."^

"In the peculiar times we’re living in, your role is more important than ever.”

"In his speech Dominic Grieve also told guests how he was following in the footsteps of his own father who was himself awarded the Légion d’honneur at the French Residence while the young Dominic was still a student at Magdalen College, Oxford."

uk.ambafrance.org/Dominic-Grieve-decorated-for-work-in-Franco-British-relations

francobritish.org/en/about-us/

LillithsFamiliar · 08/04/2019 21:04

The result is likely to be the same unless the gerrymandering to increase Remain votes is successful . Then, what happens? You've cost the country £xxx and have the same result. You've tied up budgets and parliamentary time to stroke egos and stoke tension.

TalkinPaece · 08/04/2019 21:07

Lilliths
How could one gerrymander to increase the remain vote?
Referendums do not have electoral areas

stillpinching · 08/04/2019 21:18

Clavinova My God, that made my blood run cold; so many things falling into place... Hmm

OP posts:
LillithsFamiliar · 08/04/2019 21:18

Talkin see below for the aim of one of the current campaign groups Gerrymandering isn't just about a geographic area. It can be about changing who can vote by other means:

EU citizens and even British citizens who have lived abroad for more than 15 years are denied a vote in general elections and referendums. They were unable to vote in the 2016 EU Referendum. But these are the people whose lives could be most immediately turned upside down by Brexit. A people's vote on the Brexit deal will require the UK Parliament to pass a specific referendum law. This law could include provisions for extending the vote in a way that is most fair to those most affected by the decision.

If successful that would increase the eligible electorate by 4.8mill which could swing the vote from Leave to Remain.

BoneyBackJefferson · 08/04/2019 21:20

TalkinPaece

There is at least one poster on this thread that would like to change the rules so that expats can vote in a new referendum.

and you also posted that

If there is ever another vote it should be
- legally binding
- have clear margin boundaries
- have clear turnout limits
- have VERY strict rules about advertising and social media that would result in the result being void if they were broken

Non at first glance seem too bad, but could quite easily overturn a majority vote.

LaurieMarlow · 08/04/2019 21:21

How could one gerrymander to increase the remain vote?

I was just about to say this.

There probably are ways to boost the remain vote if you wanted to, but Gerrymandering is not one of them.

TalkinPaece · 08/04/2019 21:23

Gerrymandering Def'n en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering
is NOT the same as entry on the electoral roll

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