To think that women shouldn’t have to put up with this?

[getoffmyhandyousleazebag]

Yesterday I had to wait in for somebody to come and inspect and collect DH’s old lease car. Eventually a man turned up (late). He spent a bit of time moaning about the disorganisation of his company, and then said “well this is going to take about half an hour- unless you want to stand there and watch me! Can I have the keys?”

I had the two sets of keys in my hand and passed them over to him. As I put them in his hand he grabbed my hand, kept hold of it so I couldn’t pull it away and repeatedly stroked it hard with his thumb. While doing this he looked me in the eye and said, “Now why don’t you go and make me a nice cup of coffee, my darling?”

I’d like to say that I said some clever comment back at him, but I felt so uncomfortable that I didn’t say anything - even standing there on my own doorstep. Also as he was inspecting a vehicle to look for things you can be charged for, I didn’t want to antagonise him.

I didn’t make him any coffee though.

He was a man probably in his 60s and working for a company called BCA.

AIBU to think that in this day and age no men should think that this is an acceptable way to treat a women in her own home, or anywhere?

(Namechanged for this as I am bound to mention it to someone in real life)

And I have never been lacking in the self esteem department, but have reacted differently in different scenarios.

I can only assume that the previous posters was attempting some kind of satire, as that comment was just so completely lacking in self awareness.

Its so hard to know how to react in the moment. We've been socialised our whole lives to be 'pleasant' and not make waves...and yet when men overstep it's apparently also our fault for not speaking up at the time.

The part about him stroking your hand made me feel sick. I'm sorry he treated you like that.

Good on you for not making coffee and for reporting him.

Haven't read the full thread, but I have been in this position a few times and one of my first thoughts has been if they are willing to do that and I tell them to fuck off, what else would they do?

Its such a fleeting thought I didn't even realise it, till I went through CBT which made me focus on every thought that made me panic.

I am at the point where I can deal with most things, as long as my partner is around, even if its in the bedroom, where I can call him.

I have met some great tradesmen as well, who have gone out their way for me, like many things there are some real shits in this world and also some amazing people

This has never happened to me. That's horrible. He's lucky you didn't smack him

Oh god Kennehora what an awful sexual assault,and they think its funny and for you.

This man grabbing your hand and keys deserved a full on slap across the kisser for grabbing and holding you, eeeergh! Stroking you!

So glad you reported him.

I've been wanked at twice, flashed at once, had my arse grabbed, had my head pushed down, followed by a creepy family member, and some...all before finishing with my teen years. I won't bore you with the rest, but most women I've spoken to can relay similar sadly. Fucking entitled women-shaming wankers.

Not 'shaming'
Women-hating wankers

@Kennehora I'm so sorry that happened to you.

Argh!!!! It just makes my blood boil that men get away with this shit all the time!!!

And also saddened that women hear stories like that and their first reaction is 'well why didn't the woman act differently?' Instead of 'why did that fucking man feel so entitled to trespass against a woman in such a personal way?' Women are Sooo conditions to excuse, hide, minimise the shitty behaviour of men. We would rather attack the victim for her inadequate unprepared reaction than the man who DECIDED to assault someone.

Exactly- stop victim blaming!

I also can’t believe the amount of excuses and victim blaming. Yes but of course the menz were touchy feely in carry on films so all good. 🙄

I'm old. Nasty creepy twattish behaviour by men was still pretty rare back in the 80s in my working life. And my first jobs were Saturday jobs in cafes in a northern seaside town.
A man in his 60s is not much older than me and he will have been seen as a creepy twat all his life by his colleagues.
It's horrible when you are blindsided by someone behaving like this.

What I mean is, this was never mainstream behaviour in my working life but obviously there are plenty of creepy twats around.

getoffmyhandyousleazebag well done for reporting him. Your reaction was normal especially in the combination of circumstances you describe - semi private, few or no witnesses or back up for you, and the perceived financial power he had over you to "punish" you if you made a fuss.

In the end it is about power. There are men who get off on intimidating women and watching their reaction, no matter, almost, what the reaction is.

So complaining to head office is the best thing.

This sort of thing happened to me as soon as I started holiday jobs at 15 - and as I was at a girls' school, lived in a tiny rural village where I barely spoke to anyone and had no brothers and virtually no contact with men I was initially absolutely clueless and shocked to the core with no idea how to deal with being in a work mini bus full of intimidating creepy men!

That was in the late 80s and the worst ones were in their 30s and 40s, but rather than being generational I think it was about the power imbalance - they felt so powerful intimidating a teenage girl. Inadequate disgusting pieces of human trash that they were.

A younger friend of mine, in her early 20s, told me yesterday she's upset that she's going to "have to" give up her well paid and until recently fun second job because a fellow employee has been harassing her and boarderline stalking her, and has taken her mobile number from a list in the office and been text bombing her and reacted with fury when she replied asking him to leave her alone and then blocked his number. I've persuaded her to go to her boss, and had to give her a pep talk reminding her he is 100% in the wrong and not only should he be the one leaving the job, not her, but he's probably done enough for police involvement not just to be fired! It's depressing that her first thought was that she would have to resign, but standing up to creeps can be scary, and they behave as though they have all the power and probably genuinely believe that they do!

There are still a lot of men like that around, and where official complaints through employed are an option I think that's the best way to hit back, because all this "shouting fury" and slapping probably turns some of them on and although spitting in coffee might feel like revenge it achieves precisely nothing because they're not going to know it happened or suffer for it at all in reality!

I don't think op said this is how men usually act she just said (correctly) that it's unacceptable. I've never had anything like that happen to me it sounds awful definitely complain.

Most women reaction would have been to take their hands away, tell him to not touch you and strongly complain immediately.
At Christmas me and my 11yr old DD where on a ride at a fair. He strapped in DD and then when he was strapping me in, made very inappropriate remarks, brushed his hand over my chest and felt my leg. Normally I would call out this kind of behaviour, but in my mind at the time all I could think about was that he was responsible for our safety and that if I did he might not strap us in properly.
In hindsight, especially since DD was there, I should have called him out, got off the ride and made a huge fuss but at the time I totally froze and all I could think about was her safety. To make matters worse, instead of hating that creep since then, I've hated myself for it ever since.

Sounds like he's from a different generation, where people were a bit more touchy feely.
Urrgghh! No!! Nothing to do with age and everything to do with an entitled misogynistic letch!

Not acceptable 40 years ago. Not acceptable now.

And also saddened that women hear stories like that and their first reaction is 'well why didn't the woman act differently?' Instead of 'why did that fucking man feel so entitled to trespass against a woman in such a personal way?'

This is bang-on. Instead of asking "why did you let x, y and z happen?" it should be "what the fuck is wrong with the man who chose that action?" Women are shamed by other women into thinking they didn't behave correctly when, actually, you shouldn't need to think "I'd have throat punched that fucker" because men shouldn't be perpetrating acts like that against women in the first place.

My Dad always taught me to fight, always encouraged me to defend myself, always told me to kick, spit, bite, scratch, scream and do whatever I needed to if ever I was attacked. He sent me to martial arts classes and I was considered a tough kid, always standing up for myself and others. Didn't stop me being raped in my late teens and the sad truth is that because I fought back, because I did all those things my Dad taught me to do, I was attacked more violently. He might have walked away with a broken nose and scars on his body, I walked away with scars on my soul.

You can be as tough as the day is long and still be violated in the worst possible way. Fuck "why didn't you fight back" because clearly that's part of the problem, telling women their reaction wasn't the right one rather than teaching men not to assault women.

On a tangent here, but related to what FudgeBrownie2019 just posted about her dad teaching her to fight and it not helping/ backfiring when she did (after all alone 1:1 most men will our power most women) how do you talk to your daughter's about this?

From creeps to rapists - but starting, perhaps, with the creeps - how do MN ers talk to their young teen daughters about this issue, without scaring them or victim blaming in advance or putting them off going out into the world, seizing opportunity and being strong, independent and adventurous, and without giving well meant but terrible/ dangerous advice?

FudgeBrownie2019 very sorry to hear what he did you you

I have no idea blue skies, and it worries me. I have one girl and two boys, the oldest of whom is a pretty fierce 8 year old girl and so far all we have done is reinforce the concept of consent and bodily autonomy from a very early age. Now they're starting to get older we talk about 'tricky' strangers, and what to do if you feel uncertain etc. Trusting instincts etc.

But I feel completely unarmed tbh.

how do you talk to your daughter's about this?

same way I talk to my sons! You start from very little and explain that no one touches private parts of your body, and you move on as you give them more independence.

It's not really different to teach them about the danger of traffic: they know some people drive like morons and are dangerous so you should e mindful. Same with weirdos and pervs everywhere. They don't get scared of cars any more than they get scared of people, they learn to use common sense.

The main advice I give them is to remove themselves from any dangerous or antagonistic situations as much as possible. Better run than fight, but to fight if they have to. And make noise to try to get attention.

A school child knows that it's not acceptable to slap a friend's bum even to play, and that they mustn't tolerate their friends to do so - why would it be different when they are teens and young adults.

I sold a shed on Ebay. The man came to dismantle it and take it away, and just as he was leaving, he asked me if I would go on a date with him. He was a lot older than me. I declined saying I had a boyfriend, he said "That's fine, I have a wife"

Babuchak with all due respect it's totally different.

When they are small yes - nobody touches you where your underwear would cover, no physical contact without consent etc etc.

That's all utterly irrelevant if someone gets on a 3/4 empty train at 9pm and sits next to you and starts harassing you, or you are groped in a crowd, or heckled walking along an unexpectedly quiet street at 4pm, or grabbed from behind on that same street, or unexpectedly working with creepy older letches who don't actually touch you except on the arm/ hand/ shoulder and brush past "accidentally", or set you the task of tidying things on low shelves at age 15.

All those things happened to me between the ages of 15-25.

My 13 year old DD went to a big football match with 2 other 13 year olds yesterday, including a short journey by crowded underground train to get there. She was home by 9pm, everything was good, people were nice. As will usually be the case. However she's just getting to the age where little children guidelines just aren't enough. The world (well, western Europe) is a usually wonderful and fairly safe, comparatively speaking, but complicated place. So many things are not as simple as the pants rule.