To think that women shouldn’t have to put up with this?

[getoffmyhandyousleazebag]

Yesterday I had to wait in for somebody to come and inspect and collect DH’s old lease car. Eventually a man turned up (late). He spent a bit of time moaning about the disorganisation of his company, and then said “well this is going to take about half an hour- unless you want to stand there and watch me! Can I have the keys?”

I had the two sets of keys in my hand and passed them over to him. As I put them in his hand he grabbed my hand, kept hold of it so I couldn’t pull it away and repeatedly stroked it hard with his thumb. While doing this he looked me in the eye and said, “Now why don’t you go and make me a nice cup of coffee, my darling?”

I’d like to say that I said some clever comment back at him, but I felt so uncomfortable that I didn’t say anything - even standing there on my own doorstep. Also as he was inspecting a vehicle to look for things you can be charged for, I didn’t want to antagonise him.

I didn’t make him any coffee though.

He was a man probably in his 60s and working for a company called BCA.

AIBU to think that in this day and age no men should think that this is an acceptable way to treat a women in her own home, or anywhere?

(Namechanged for this as I am bound to mention it to someone in real life)

The trouble is you are not expecting it. You can always advised people and think afterwards what you might have done instead but because it is random you often freeze or don’t know what to say or question yourself about if you are overthinking or if he is really intending to make you feel that way.

It is unacceptable and you did well to complain OP.

I suggest people follow up the twitter link Gillian put on. It will make you think.

Another area that people may not think about is nursing staff and careers going into peoples homes. I know my best friend has had unacceptable comments made to her in this situation.

OP I hope in time you feel better but by posting this you may have alerted more naive and trusting women to take care. That in itself is some good coming out of this uncomfortable situation, so thank you for sharing 💐

Care workers not careers or caters. Auto correct 😠

Thanks Bowerbird that’s really kind

I love all the discussion points on Mumsnet it really helps to define what one actually thinks about behaviour taken as the norm.

That said I find debates headlined like this unhelpful

" To think that women shouldn’t have to put up with this? (79 Posts)"
No - one can define what is acceptable for all " women" .
Some " women " would outright flirt back for example. Most men would not behave like that. I would guess that that particular man has had some measure of " success" with that approach.

If one is uncomfortable with that or any kind of similar behaviour just let the person know immediately. It is an individual problem. I have been inappropriately touched ( hit on even ) by lesbian females so it is not a male/female issue. Just an individual problem.

tessie I don’t think the heading “women shouldn’t have to put up with this” is unhelpful.

Yes, nobody can define what is acceptable for all women, but I really don’t think these hypothetical women who would “outright flirt back” would be missing out if those few men who think this is acceptable stopped doing things like this to all women, do you?

Also, these women who would apparently flirt back wouldn’t be putting up with it would they? They would I suppose be enjoying it so wouldn’t count in my unhelpful generalisation anyway....

Please don’t give yourself a hard time about not speaking up when it happened. I disagree with PP that most women would - I know plenty of women who have had similar happen and frozen, then voiced how much it upset or angered them later.

My example would be going in for a major operation earlier this year. I am a rape survivor and have severe anxiety at the thought of being under general anaesthetic and not able to keep myself safe from men. The anaesthetists were female and kind enough to arrange that it would just be women in the room while I went to sleep. The (male) surgeon said to me ‘am I allowed to be in the room because I’m a man’ with a jokey smile on his face seconds before I was taken in. It makes me livid now but at the time I didn’t speak up because I didn’t want to jeopardise how well he did my operation.

“Now why don’t you go and make me a nice cup of coffee, my darling?”

omg, I would have freaked out at that point & shouted him out of the house. With enormous fury. Hope you're ok, OP. You HAVE told this story all over your social media, right? Why are you NOT seeking revenge?

If you didn't shout fury at him... I don't know why not. No man has tried to molest me without getting shouting fury out of me. Not since I was 14, anyway. I have NO IDEA why other women don't react that way.

@dailymailsuckswails not all women react like that andbit has been explained upthread. Some people freeze, the OP was telying on him as they can add all sorts onto the wear and tear of the vehicle, you have to weigh up your safety as well.

I’ve frozen before and other times i’ve Been bolshy, like the time a guy felt my arse in the queue to depart a train. I grabbed his hand and held it up in the air and shouted ‘excuse me has anyone lost this? I just found it stuck to my arse!’ The reason I did that was the safe feeling of a lot of witnesses.

I actually feel glad i’m Getting invisible as I age ad I used to be pretty witha fantastic figure (never realised it at the time though) and me were quite lecherous to me. I worked in the service industry andnone night we had a theme night so I was wearing a costume with a lower than usual neckline. One old drunk disgusting man said ‘hmmm your not really fuckable you have tots like a man!’ I was a B cup but why did he think he had the right to comment. Another one was a similar man, when I was suffering with handover, saying ‘ah well that spoils my plans to take you to a hayfield!’ Erm in your dreams but both times I froze as they were customers and I needed the job.

• hay fever not handover

I guess for some, fear response hits first.
I go straight to being outraged.
I've told DD to response with fury first & foremost, too.

I take that back. Fear isn't the problem at all (I reckon).
Low self-esteem is the problem.

There was a very long thread (somewhere not MN, last year, back of Me Too). Posters were asked "Why did you wait years to reveal you were sexually molested/assaulted?"

What struck me powerfully in the stories was... the women all felt they didn't deserve better. They wouldn't be believed if the perpetrator denied it. This was normal treatment so nobody would think they were right to complain about it. Nobody else would think it was that bad. It wasn't worth the hassle (ie, they didn't deserve better). Anyone who heard the story would side with the perpetrator. (Worst of all) The women were used to that kind of thing, anyway. Again & Again & Again.

ps: I guess my anger short-circuits my own low self-esteem programming.

I don’t think I felt low self esteem. I was taken by surprise, repelled, but also aware that at that moment the person was in a position where he could potentially deliberately cost me money if he chose to, so making a huge fuss at the time may not have been in my favour.

Although of course what you said May apply in the sort of cases you mentioned.

I have NO IDEA why other women don't react that way.

That's because you lack imagination and empathy. Nothing to be proud of!

where he could potentially deliberately cost me money if he chose to

^^

So he felthhe could take advantage of you? Fuck that.

Felt he

No - one can define what is acceptable for all " women". Some " women " would outright flirt back for example. Most men would not behave like that. I would guess that that particular man has had some measure of " success" with that approach.

I'm a little bemused that there have been a couple of posters moaning at OP. No one should put up with that behaviour and it's behaviour which massively disproportionately affects women.

I can't imagine anyone would flirt back, assuming it happened as OP described. OP certainly isn't making some blanket criticism of all men. Some conduct is in a grey area and it can be a shame when people overreact to innocent behaviour- this is not that.

AverageMan Wed 03-Apr-19 10:57:17
Actually, they were a bit more touchy feely in the old days. You watch the Carry On movies and the sitcoms from the seventies, the hands were all over women.

Yeah, because sitcoms are totally a reflection of real life.

This man was roughly 60. Only a few years older than me. And I can assure you we didn't like creeps in my young days either.

I work in a male dominated trade in a role which requires me to 'serve' male customers. They know this and manipulate the situation.

I regularly (read-daily) am touched, obstructed, visually undressed, patted, stroked, have personal questions aimed at me and am stopped from carrying on my business by men who wish to hold my attention.

I feel you, OP. I really do. His tactics are textbook. Im nothing special and nearly 40 and some days I really feel like just walking away from the whole thing. I'm no walkover, either. I get this.

“I have NO IDEA why other women don't react that way”

Taking a wild guess-because you have no imagination?

I’m definitely nothing special, Insomnibrat!

I wonder if it's a power/control thing? So many do it! It's certainly manipulative....

Fear isn't the problem at all (I reckon). Low self-esteem is the problem.

My self-esteem is fine, thanks. I didn’t fight back when I was groped because I didn’t want to escalate the situation. If I’d had lashed out, who’s to say I wouldn’t have got seriously hurt? Ffs.

Surgehopper I don’t know - maybe he just REALLY wanted a cup of coffee. In which case maybe “I’m sorry to ask, but is there any chance I could have a coffee please?” would be more appropriate

You do what you need to do to feel safe. If freezing and dealing with it later, by making a complaint, feels right to you then that's the right thing to do.

Don't listen to anyone who tries to guilt you over your reaction.

Thank you, Barren