To apologise for arguing that discrimination against the Irish 'isn't a thing'

[wheresmymojo]

I was on an AIBU thread months and months ago where someone was talking about 'Irish twins' (used for two children born 12 months or less apart).

I argued that it wasn't offensive because Irish people aren't discriminated against. That I've never, ever seen any disparaging remarks about Irish people except in jest, etc.

Anyway...I just wanted to say: I was wrong.
I should've listened more to the Irish people on the thread and I've learned my lesson there.

With the discussions about the NI border due to Brexit I've been reading up on the relevant history (back to before the famine) and I've been shocked at how our English Govt treated your people. I've been very naive about the degree to which English education misses out some lots of inconvenient parts of our history.

I also commented on several FB threads after the recent Bloody Sunday prosecution and was shocked at some of the comments of other people.

So I was wrong, and I apologise (even if no-one reads this - it's been playing on my conscience).

I'm Irish. I get 'you don't look Irish' and 'it must be the Spanish Armada in you' all the time. No, had it tested and I am only 2% Scandinavian. We are NATIVELY dark and I think that scares the crap out of white supremacists.

I fit all the stereotypes unfortunately

user dark hair but not dark skin surely? Our climate doesn't allow for dark skin hahaha! I'm Irish born and bred but my Dad's family were Italian. My children have dark hair, brown eyes and lovely sallow skin (lucky bastards)
I have the dark hair but not the sallow skin unfortunately

Good on you for your post OP but I am quite shocked as an English person that you’ve never noticed Irish prejudice before.

I’m a 5th generation NZer with strong Irish heritage on both sides, very lapsed Catholic + Irish surname (that I didn’t change when I married). My Protestant MIL (3rd or 4th gen NZer) in particular has made some jaw droppingly bigoted comments over the years. I shudder to think what proper Irish people have to contend with.

My gran remembers job notices (in NZ!) that said Irish/Catholics need not apply.

.

Streamside

I first experienced the complexities on a camping holiday on the Isle of Mann many years ago.

It was early July, part of the campsite was taken up by, "Bangor Boys' Brigade". They generally kept to the area of their camp site, the rest of the camp was a mixture of British and Irish families.

Then the 12th arrived and they partied, and they partied into the night, when they were told by others to quieten down, but in less polite terms.

There is a certain irony to hearing a group of people celebrating being British being told to, "shut the f* up, you Irish...".

I'm neither proud nor ashamed of having been born English - I wasn't responsible for anything that my ancestors/countrypeople did, appalling though very much of it was.

You might not be responsible but you benefit from it. Not as much as people did in the past but we do benefit from it to this day.

You can travel in Asia, Africa, North America as well as Ireland and not need to speak a foreign language.

We still have the Tate galleries.

Until very recently we had huge amounts of heavy industry because of the past history of Britain.

Piglet86 knowing a couple of Campbell College old boys at university they gave me the impression it had more in common with Eton College than your average comp (which I attended), were they pulling my leg?

The Irish built our canals, our railways, our roads, factories and houses. Thank you Ireland.

sorry, @longwayoff but that's not at all necessary.

Irish people know full well that employment on British railways etc etc kept the Irish economy afloat for many years.
I remember doing a module on public finance at one point and (happy to be corrected) the Irish national income in the 50's exceeded what was produced internally thanks to income being sent "home" from the UK, US, Australia etc.

So, thank you Britian.

That's the nature of the relationship between the two countries- mutual dependence, but with the greater power resting in London.

I dare say the Irish did make money on the railways...dosnt make up for the potatoe famine though.
There is only ira violence because of colonial rule of Ireland. If someone invaded England we would probably use violence to get them out. Not saying its right but it's true.

I agree malificent

Forgive my ignorance here - but to further my learning... can someone please explain to me why the marches are allowed to happen in Belfast every year on 12th July?? Learning about the history in Ireland, it seems incredibly insensitive and sectarian (to put it mildly!)

@ethelfleda

Mainly because the right to march is such a large part of the Loyalist psyche that to remove them the right to march would cause much more trouble than simply re-routing them from sensitive areas and policing them correctly.

Plus, Loyalists are people too, they've lived in Belfast for hundreds of years, they're entitled to celebrate their traditions too. Can you imagine the outcry if it were suggested cancelling the Notting Hill Carnival because some people don't like black folk celebrating their West Indian roots?

I don’t think we should get too misty-eyed about Irish economic migration to the UK. As ever with the latest wave of economic migrants, they did the hard, dirty, dangerous jobs for less money, often underpaid, treated like a lower order of human (see the endless parade of simian 19thc Punch cartoons which depicted Irish people as ‘a creature between the Gorilla and the Negro’, or one of Swift’s Yahoos carrying a navvy’s hod) and subjected to discrimination and ill treatment.

Of course, Punch was making a political point — reassuring its readers that there was no need to worry over much about sick, bewildered, Irish-speaking famine victims staggering off the boats to beg or undercut local labour as navvies — because if they were escaping famine or poverty or an overcrowded country, it was because they were feckless and incapable of ‘improving’ themselves.

A magnificent structure like the Royal Border Bridge near Berwick on Tweed was built largely by Irish labourers who were escaping the Famine in the late 1840s, and who, sick and weak and doing dangerous work, died like flies during the construction, but this has been largely airbrushed out of history.

And it didn’t end there, obviously. Irish labour largely rebuilt London after WW2, my grandfather among them so he could send money home to his wife and two young sons, whom he saw for two weeks a year. He still remembered in his 70s the backbreaking work, the humiliation of being addressed as ‘Paddy’ and being turned away from boarding house after boarding house, because they didn’t want drunken, feckless, dirty Irish there.

Can you imagine the outcry if it were suggested cancelling the Notting Hill Carnival because some people don't like black folk celebrating their West Indian roots?

It's hardly comparable, is it?

The people celebrating the Notting Hill carnival haven't dominated society and discriminated against the native people in their area. Orange marches are antagonistic, the carnival is not.

@FuriousCheekyFucker - Plus, Loyalists are people too, they've lived in Belfast for hundreds of years, they're entitled to celebrate their traditions too.

Nobody objects to the loyalists celebrating their traditions. What is objected to is the fact that many of the routes go through nationalist areas and are antagonistic towards the nationalist community. Have a look at this cain.ulster.ac.uk/issues/parade/areas.htm.

The parades that don't go through nationalist areas tend to be fine.

@sakura7

That's your opinion, not a fact.

@doIreallyneedto

Thanks for selectively quoting me. If you had quoted the first part you would have noted that I already mentioned re-routing them from sensitive areas.

That's your opinion, not a fact.

Furious are you for real?

There are countless examples over the years. The violence they engaged in at the Ardoyne march a few years ago where they attacked the police. Gloating over the murders of five innocent Catholics on the Lower Ormeau Road (by pointing five fingers at the houses of the victims' families as they marched past). Massive bonfires where they burn the Irish flag, a recent one on the Shankill Road left some of their own communities homeless after it burnt down their houses. Marching through nationalist areas singing "we're up to our knees in fenian blood".

It is not an 'opinion' that the orange order has displayed intense hatred for Catholics over the years. Anyone trying to argue otherwise is fucking deluded.

@Sakura7

I was referring to your subjective opinion about Notting Hill "The people celebrating the Notting Hill carnival haven't dominated society and discriminated against the native people in their area." Demonstrably untrue as to dominating society, and an opinion depending on your viewpoint as to discrimination.

I am not saying they are on the same level, I am saying that one mans sauce is another mans poison; it's entirely subjective to your own viewpoint.

You are 100% correct on the awful goings on at some of the Orange Marches, I am not trying to minimise that, my point was that whether you like it, agree with it, disagree with it, dislike it, don't care or whatever, it's their right to celebrate their background just as much as it's your right to celebrate (or not) yours.

One "side" doesn't top trump the other, and where it spills over into breaking the law (deliberately antagonistic, hate crimes etc) it should be dealt with by the law in an impartial and just manner.

@FuriousCheekyFucker - Thanks for selectively quoting me. If you had quoted the first part you would have noted that I already mentioned re-routing them from sensitive areas.

That parades commission has tried to do that. Unfortunately, the orange order and the apprentice boys insist that marching through nationalist areas is part of their tradition.

I was addressing your point that suggested people objected to loyalists celebrating their traditions. I pointed out that nobody objects to that. Your previous point about rerouting was irrelevant to the point I was making.

I was referring to your subjective opinion about Notting Hill "The people celebrating the Notting Hill carnival haven't dominated society and discriminated against the native people in their area." Demonstrably untrue as to dominating society, and an opinion depending on your viewpoint as to discrimination.

You can't seriously be conflating the discrimination suffered by Catholics in NI with the supposed 'discrimination' of English people in Notting Hill?

@sakura7

I used Notting Hill as an example. I could have just as easily used the Muslims in Sarajevo in the 90s, the Jews in WW2, the Palestinians, the blacks (and now whites) in SA/Zimbabwe, the Asians in Uganda in the 70s, etc etc.

You've now officially gone down the rabbit hole of playing the classic "Who is the biggest victim in the Troubles/NI" game, and as such will be unable to discuss the matter from an objective viewpoint.

Thanks for an interesting thread while it lasted.

I had no idea before moving to Britain that it was still a thing either. In general I’ve been shocked by how racist Britain is.

Furious So you're now comparing the situation of unionists in NI (and more specifically the orange order) to people who have suffered genuine persecution? Like the Jews in WW2 or the Muslims in Bosnia? And you don't see any irony in this?

It is possible to be subjective and see from the evidence available that one community suffered to a greater extent. Many British people who have informed themselves have come to the same conclusion.

It's too easy to close down the argument you're losing by claiming the other person is biased.

Furious, you’re Britsplaining again.

@Grisaille - Furious, you’re Britsplaining again.

The subject of tradition is a strange one - at what point is is not ok to celebrate ‘tradition’ when it physically harms someone else - of course - but what if it deeply offensive?