To apologise for arguing that discrimination against the Irish 'isn't a thing'

[wheresmymojo]

I was on an AIBU thread months and months ago where someone was talking about 'Irish twins' (used for two children born 12 months or less apart).

I argued that it wasn't offensive because Irish people aren't discriminated against. That I've never, ever seen any disparaging remarks about Irish people except in jest, etc.

Anyway...I just wanted to say: I was wrong.
I should've listened more to the Irish people on the thread and I've learned my lesson there.

With the discussions about the NI border due to Brexit I've been reading up on the relevant history (back to before the famine) and I've been shocked at how our English Govt treated your people. I've been very naive about the degree to which English education misses out some lots of inconvenient parts of our history.

I also commented on several FB threads after the recent Bloody Sunday prosecution and was shocked at some of the comments of other people.

So I was wrong, and I apologise (even if no-one reads this - it's been playing on my conscience).

Really interesting thread, well done op

Such a rubbish saying anyway. Irish twins. Ridiculous. Nothing like twins. I don’t even know why the saying exists.

Thanks op, I'm not sure you realise just how much it matters when someone stands up and admits they were wrong and yes they can now see the bigotry, that's so denied, simmering away on here.

rainbowjelly clearly means no harm and worse still fully believes she isn't delivering any on here She fails to see the undercurrent of dismissal towards the Irish, their history and current treatment she presents in each and every post, even those where she insists she's nothing against The Irish. She fails to realise that evil springs from evil, the IRA and it's previous brotherhoods sprang from Ireland wanting to control it's own country and people, from 800 years of oppression a famine genocide and a country divided. They existed during a civil war, a war that happened because of Britain's colonisation of northern Ireland.

@longwayoff

Protestant v Catholic enmity noted. My blood ran cold last week when I saw a marching band accompanying the Brexit march last week. On the streets of London, god help us. Hope never to see it again.

Totally grinds my gears. I went to the Somme Battlefields last year and did a tour, the 36 Division Memorial. 36 was the Ulster Division and it's make up was non sectarian, as most of the Armies of the time regardless of nation, the majority of the lower ranks were working class folk, drawn from equally the Catholic and the Protestant population of Ulster. These lads died side by side regardless of which Church or School or area of the Province they came from.

The Loyal Orange Lodge has taken over an area to the rear of the Memorial which was awash with Orange banners and only remembers the Protestant Lodge Members. This is an area of France that was gifted to all of Ulster as a memorial.

It massively upset me that anyone would think that was appropriate or acceptable.

It's a very complex subject, OP has scratched the surface and good for her, I applaud anyone who is unwilling to accept the status quo and educate themselves, but I must offer a word of caution - the whole issue of Ireland, politics, religion, the Famine, the Plantations, the Troubles etc etc is awash with colourised views and propaganda put over by all sides of the divide (note I say "all" and not "both", to pretend there are just Catholic/Nationalist and Protestant/Loyalist is the first error most make), and sadly it is more of a class thing (and by extension a money thing).

Finally, the whole border/Brexit thing is a red herring. The UK and the RoI has had free passage of people since the creation of the Free State in 1923. It has had free passage of goods since 1993 although prior to this it was rare in many areas for actual checks to be carried out - even during the Troubles only certain crossing points were manned and many of those on a sporadic basis dependant on Intelligence or the prevailing Security state - and this was always to disrupt Terrorists and their smuggling rather than to have a Nation State border in the true sense. Should the Irish government want to go back to that status they clearly could, however the EU don't want this.

Fully agree furious, I don't have any Irish ancestry so am reluctant to comment on their affairs, as you say, so many issues and extremely complex. But I know when I see hatred marching our streets.

@longwayoff

Neither have I, the bigotry between Catholic/Protestant was a massive surprise to me - when I was a kid going to Church Parade with the Cubs we used to rotate it on a monthly basis between RC, CofE and Methodist - I knew that the CofE was "our Church" as that was where my Mum and Gran would go - but the way I was brought up the RC Church was a bit newer and made of glass, had comfier seats and a dude with a guitar, the Methodist was a red brick one with decent heating, "ours" was an old cold one with a scary graveyard. It simply wasn't an issue that my mates would go to different Churches.

I'm an Athiest now so don't allow Religion to bother me - this is mainly down to the damage I have seen religion cause not only in Ireland/NI, but ethnic cleansing on the basis of race and religion I witnessed first hand in Bosnia.

Most British people in the Mainland don't think there is a problem because it isn't on their news every evening. The first time my MIL came to visit us and watched the evening UTV news she was horrified - punishment beatings, murders, pipebombs etc - she was convinced the apocalypse was on the way. It was just background noise, ordinary levels of violence and thuggery going on. That was in 1998, so not exactly the height of the Troubles.

My youngest son, being born in Antrim, is entitled to an Irish Passport should he want one. I'm from Yorkshire Mining stock on one side, Yorkshire Farming on the other, no Irish ancestry at all.

OP, it is not easy to rethink a long held view or assumption, even if you are wrong, so I applaud you.

If more people were willing to think objectively about these things rather than jumping to a defensive position then I think the world will would be a nicer place.

Well done OP for doing your research. I agree that there is a massive problem about the teaching of history and the reluctance to deal with the bad part of British history. There is a clear narrative of ‘we’re the good guys’.

I find it very striking that the same people who say that there’s no point in dragging up the past and that it’s nothing to do with them are often to be found saying how important it is that we remember WWI and WWII. Many of the instances to be best forgotten are after these events e.g. the partition of Ireland was after WWI and the partition of India after WWII. These crimes of Empire still affect people’s lives today. They are taught in other countries and affect their view of Britain.

Germany teaches its children about the horrors of its history so that the excessive nationalism doesn’t happen again. If only more countries would do likewise.

Thanks for the apology OP! Genuinely appreciated. Can't tell you the nonsense I've put up with living in England for 20 odd years. I'm from the North so there were a lot up terrorist 'jokes' or comments. It had died down recently but literally the day after the Brexit vote some old fella in the shop queue heard my accent and told me I'd be going 'home' soon. I told him politely that I wouldn't be going anywhere as 1) I was both Irish AND British. 2) Ireland has a separate agreement with the UK outside of the EU anyway so the Irish weren't going anywhere.
He didn't look happy. I wonder how he's faring now??

I think Brexit has been a fine contemporary example of how little regard the Westminster government pays to the island of Ireland. The issue of the relationship with Ireland post Brexit was never raised in the referendum campaigns on either side, as I remember. I guess we assumed we would get away with ignoring the impact on Ireland, as we usually do.

I think Westminster & the general public have been genuinely shocked that the EU regards Ireland as an equal country to Britain, with equal rights to be considered in finding a way for Britain to leave the EU. I don't think that had even occurred to Britain that Ireland is a country with equal standing - it requires a paradigm shift that the chaos in Westminster over the backstop demonstrates has not taken place.

Finally, the whole border/Brexit thing is a red herring. The UK and the RoI has had free passage of people since the creation of the Free State in 1923. It has had free passage of goods since 1993 although prior to this it was rare in many areas for actual checks to be carried out - even during the Troubles only certain crossing points were manned and many of those on a sporadic basis dependant on Intelligence or the prevailing Security state - and this was always to disrupt Terrorists and their smuggling rather than to have a Nation State border in the true sense. Should the Irish government want to go back to that status they clearly could, however the EU don't want this.

There is no "want" here. Neither the UK, Ireland nor the EU want to put up a border. But if the UK doesn't negotiate a customs union with the EU, then all parties will need to secure their borders under international trade laws. There is no choice in that scenario. That is the reason for the backstop - to keep the border open while the future relationship is negotiated. Once a trade deal is reached that means there is no need to secure the border (from any side), the backstop ceases to be needed.

@MindyStClaire

Can you point me to the exact International Trade Law that defines where we "must" secure our border?

I'll save you the time and effort. You can't, because it doesn't exist.

tradebetablog.wordpress.com/2018/07/18/does-the-wto-require-countries-to-control-their-borders/

Nothing more endearing/attractive/respectable to me than someone who can make a sincere apology. Anyone who spends time to educate themselves on something really quite complex, holding their hands up and admitting fault, is alright in my book.

As we are starting to understand the depths of racism, misogyny, privilege, nepotism, propaganda - and all becoming “woke” as the young’ens seem to be saying, we seem to be some way towards realising where we’ve gone wrong in the past. It’s not simply war and peace, genocide, terrorism and colonialism, natives or non natives, or even much fact. It’s an issue of the wider continuous narrative in which each and every person unwittingly becomes complicit. The way that we refer to people, even in jest, isn’t as harmless as people once thought. All of it feeds into a false narrative, and perpetuates “our” sense of superiority. As pp have said, things like ‘Irish twins’ etc never really were just a cutesy joke, but all formed part of an othering and demeaning narrative directed at Irish people. Not one bit of it is harmless, and we must all educate ourselves as much as is possible. We have NEVER been given the truth about the history of the world in our schools. Absolutely never been told about who really did what to who, and why that was. We must find out and read and look up all this stuff for ourselves.

I promise myself that I will be giving my children thorough history research lessons as they get bigger, and have already started some now. I talk a lot with them about Ireland because I have Irish heritage, and wanted to paint a real picture of what the Irish have had to endure, and still endure to this day. The men hung as terrorists, that in another person’s view would be seen as heroes. The sheer will and determination to survive and overcome, of a whole race of people. Their incredible contribution to the world. The literature and culture, the warmth and kindness of the people. I don’t want them only having the bullshit version that currently exists: IRA, potatoes, English didn’t do anything wrong. That’s Irish history for you, Done. That’s not acceptable to me, for my children to go forward in life not knowing the truth.

I had a long conversation with someone on holiday last year, about the Belgians in the Congo. The lady was weeping by the end of it. People have no idea what Belgian colonisers did to the Congo in order to become the world leaders in chocolate production. It’s the same story of history all over the world, including Ireland. I have a fantastic Palestinian colleague, it makes my guts ache when she talks about her home and her shredded up culture. History that’s systematically being torn to shreds. She’ll carry her traditions on here though, she teaches her children about their heritage, and hopes one day to be able to take them there to experience the way it was supposed to be. Nobody gives a shit about it, we’re barely even told.

When they started off what feels like ten years ago with the brexit referendum, I said “yeah but what about Ireland?”. For one thing, nobody I knew thought leave would win, but Ireland was just never mentioned. As it went on I kept talking about it and thinking about it, and yet it wasn’t mentioned anywhere. Now here we are, and shock horror, Ireland is a bit of a problem that somehow the London establishment had not thought of up to this point. The fucking audacity of them, to just barely consider Ireland at all, it’s quite frankly disgusting.

The winners write the history. They always have done, then they spread their chosen narrative far and wide. It’s like a international gaslighting.

@FuriousCheekyFucker - Can you point me to the exact International Trade Law that defines where we "must" secure our border?

There is no such requirement. However, there is a requirement that WTO members are treated equally (most-favoured nation principle) that means. There are certain exceptions (see www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/TIF_e/fact2_e.htm:

For example, countries can set up a free trade agreement that applies only to goods traded within the group — discriminating against goods from outside. Or they can give developing countries special access to their markets. Or a country can raise barriers against products that are considered to be traded unfairly from specific countries. And in services, countries are allowed, in limited circumstances, to discriminate. But the agreements only permit these exceptions under strict conditions. In general, MFN means that every time a country lowers a trade barrier or opens up a market, it has to do so for the same goods or services from all its trading partners — whether rich or poor, weak or strong.

As I'm sure you are already aware, this means that if the UK do not put tariffs/barriers to entry on goods from the RoI into NI, they must do the same for all other members of the WTO into the UK. That's really taking control of your borders :-)

Finally, the whole border/Brexit thing is a red herring. The UK and the RoI has had free passage of people since the creation of the Free State in 1923. ... Should the Irish government want to go back to that status they clearly could, however the EU don't want this.

I hope I am misunderstanding this. The rest of the post I agreed with wholeheartedly but why.on.earth would Ireland leave the EU for the convenience of the UK ? What have I missed ?

I am sorry to ready this on a thread which I felt had made some progress toward understanding the complexity of these issues.

The minute I woke up to hear the Edgar ended result , my first thought was what about Ireland?

Furious, have you come across the expression Tansplaining? Your posts are verging on it, especially the ones in which you appear to suggest that you alone come from a position of privileged, non-partisan authority to pronounce on the troubles.

Neither have I, the bigotry between Catholic/Protestant was a massive surprise to me - when I was a kid going to Church Parade with the Cubs we used to rotate it on a monthly basis between RC, CofE and Methodist - I knew that the CofE was "our Church" as that was where my Mum and Gran would go - but the way I was brought up the RC Church was a bit newer and made of glass, had comfier seats and a dude with a guitar, the Methodist was a red brick one with decent heating, "ours" was an old cold one with a scary graveyard. It simply wasn't an issue that my mates would go to different Churches.

I'm an Athiest now so don't allow Religion to bother me - this is mainly down to the damage I have seen religion cause not only in Ireland/NI, but ethnic cleansing on the basis of race and religion I witnessed first hand in Bosnia.

I think this set of statements alone suggests your seven years in NI have given you very little insight into the troubles. It's also patronising. What a pity everyone in NI and Bosnia isn't as enlightened as your Cubs troop.

The minute I woke up to hear the Edgar ended result

If 'Edgar ended' is an autocorrect for 'referendum', it seems appropriately confused and dismal.

@theWarOnPeace you have put beautifully the exact post I had in mind.

@wheresmymojo
Nothing more endearing/attractive/respectable to me than someone who can make a sincere apology. Anyone who spends time to educate themselves on something really quite complex, holding their hands up and admitting fault, is alright in my book

I am Irish, live in Ireland. I can trace my ancestry in one spot to the early 1600s.
I have been fortunate to have lived and worked in many english speaking countries all over the world, including England and London.

Unfortunately, the stereotypes of Irish people have been rolled out wherever I've been.
Drunk (both parent teetotallers, I have a glass of wine at Christmas). Lazy (my parent put every one of their children through university while expanding their own business).
Dishonest (we are the type of people who sit on the school's board of management, take up the contributions for the local sports club/charity, honest to a fault).
Churchbound (I no longer attend, my parents encouraged respect towards the Church, up to the point where the individual showed they weren't worthy).
Backwards (there was no answer to that one, but people seemed astonished that we had indoor plumbing, a telephone).

My brother and I, visiting friends in London, were in the local M&S to get the makings of dinner for all of us. As we walked home, we were stopped by two police cars (one on the pavement in front of us).
Someone in M&S heard our accents, and reported us to police (1999).

All of which is to say, if anti-Irish racism was a thing of the past, then yes, we'd be past it.
But it isn't.

Most most Irish people decided in 1998 that they would move on and get over any resentment toward English/British.

There have been times during the Brexit farce, when it's been difficult to hold that in mind.

@Patroclus
The phrase "being born in a stable does not make one a horse" is attributed to Wellington, who would have roundly rejected the notion of himself as Irish; most likely identifying as AngloIrish.

See also ^ previous poster, who refers to the disproportionate number of lower ranks who were Irish. Many of those joined up as a last option to provide an income. OR were press-ganged.

And for those (few) who might perceive posts here as an attack on Englishness, I apologise, as it's not my intention.

Historically, your nation has attempted to erase mine.
You pretty much succeeded with our native language. Placenames certainly.
The famine was a natural disaster, deliberately manipulated to clear out what were perceived as vermin Irish.
If you're interested, see The Graves are walking) which traces the Cabinet level discussion in London on strategies to address the Famine.

@Piano Vigilante

have you come across the expression Tansplaining? Your posts are verging on it, especially the ones in which you appear to suggest that you alone come from a position of privileged, non-partisan authority to pronounce on the troubles.

I apologise if you think I'm trying to come across as someone who is the only authority on Ireland - I looked up the "Tansplaining" idea; not my intention however this thread is entirely exploring why English/British have the attitude they do, and why phrases such as "Irish Twins" were seen to be acceptable, and how the OP had started on the route to exploring why this had happened.

If you had actually read my posts before mounting your high horse, you would have noticed that twice previously I have mentioned and warned that the whole history of Ireland is complex, difficult and filled with propaganda from all sides, I have taken great lengths to try and not come down on any side.

You would also note that my point about the relative differences in Churches - which you have decided makes gives me a "position of privileged, non-partisan authority" was actually trying to explain why many people living in normal, working class backgrounds in England, Scotland and Wales do not see nor understand why there is a bigotry and hatred of other sects of Christianity, because it simply doesn't exist in their experiences.

You're looking to take offence where it is neither implied or intended, but crack on sweetcheeks.

PS. Cub Scouts hang around in Packs, Scouts hang around in Troops.

My English ex boss, when I asked if we had an opportunity to change a design we'd inherited from a previous consultant because it was very rigid/rectangular if it wasn't through planning yet, responded "Typical stroppy Irish".

In a workplace, I didn't report him but should have.

I don't think he's even understand what I was asking (he had trouble with my 'strange accent, not unlike Scottish' even though I have what's considered a very mild northern Irish accent which noone else really had trouble with) and just decided that was an appropriate response for some reason.

Typical stroppy Irish

• He'd even understood

I had also thought discrimination against the Irish was past history until I saw a dating programme in which friends and relatives of the single person pick their 3 prospective dates; it was a girl with Indian parents and her best friend constantly clashed with her mum in choosing, the host asked her mum to specify what the issue was and the mum (a medical consultant's wife) said "his parents can't be from a,b,c region (Kashmir, I think was one if them) - that would be like me telling your daughter should marry an Irish.

*telling you