To apologise for arguing that discrimination against the Irish 'isn't a thing'

[wheresmymojo]

I was on an AIBU thread months and months ago where someone was talking about 'Irish twins' (used for two children born 12 months or less apart).

I argued that it wasn't offensive because Irish people aren't discriminated against. That I've never, ever seen any disparaging remarks about Irish people except in jest, etc.

Anyway...I just wanted to say: I was wrong.
I should've listened more to the Irish people on the thread and I've learned my lesson there.

With the discussions about the NI border due to Brexit I've been reading up on the relevant history (back to before the famine) and I've been shocked at how our English Govt treated your people. I've been very naive about the degree to which English education misses out some lots of inconvenient parts of our history.

I also commented on several FB threads after the recent Bloody Sunday prosecution and was shocked at some of the comments of other people.

So I was wrong, and I apologise (even if no-one reads this - it's been playing on my conscience).

36 was the Ulster Division and it's make up was non sectarian, as most of the Armies of the time regardless of nation, the majority of the lower ranks were working class folk, drawn from equally the Catholic and the Protestant population of Ulster. These lads died side by side regardless of which Church or School or area of the Province they came from.

This isn’t quite right. There were a small number of Catholics in the 36th Ulster Division, but it was established to recruit UVF members and so always struggled to shake off its sectarian character. The vast majority were Protestant Ulstermen and it largely maintained that makeup throughout the war. Plenty of Catholic Irishmen served in other divisions though, especially the 10th and other older divisions (Leinster, Munsters etc).

Of course I find all this very ironic, being a protestant person from NI with an English name; there are actually hundreds of thousands of us, of English and Scottish origin - encouraged to emigrate here during the plantations but so few people in England seen to be aware of that. They think if you're Irish or northern Irish, you're Catholic and of 'true' Irish extraction.

Many English people I met in England also seemed to have no clue that Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are two separate countries.

In spite of me telling them I was from northern Ireland, they'd say things like "we do GCSEs and a levels here, you see" and i'd say "yeah, we do too". They'd refer to British law and how it's probably different on Ireland, and I'd be like "mostly not, since we're part of the UK in Northern Ireland".

I started to wonder what if any English schools teach about UK and Irish history.

There's an excuse I suppose for people who did very little schooling and perhaps ate not interested in history like an underpinning contractor who said "morality? That's not a very Irish name" (about my typical Anglo-American 70s name) bug my very well educated young colleague was, to me anyway amazingly ignorant about a part of the UK and a country on her doorstep that was part of the UK until 1921.

*what, if anything

I've also been called a "colonial" by another customer in Tesco, who have I suppose isn' t far from the truth for me (three quarters English or Scottish extraction, my surname can be either but more likely Scottish) but imagine being a Catholic Irish person on the receiving end of that.

Anyway (!) Back on "Irish twins", I wasn't really familiar with it before this thread but it seems to be referring to Catholic families who didn't/weren't allowed to use contraception and so had close pregnancies and yeah it's a little bit offensive.

The only thing I'd say in defence of the general ignorance is that English students no doubt have an absolute shitload of history to get through, and that it's a common thing among people in a world power empire (or former one) to be like that.

Americans for example will wax on about America at ad infinitum but are unbelievably ignorant about other countries.

my point was it would be easy to have anti-Irish sentiments if you've been a victim of the IRA, surely you can see that? But actually I can separate it and I don't.

Why don't you?

How many Irish or northern Irish people do you think are of have been in the IRA? What percentage of the population?

If there was an English extremist, illegal, vigilante, racketeering, terroristic group operating in another coubtry, would you like it if people from that country associated your nationality (and everyone from England) with it?

*terrorist

That was @Rainbowjellies incidentally.

@Ladygregorystoothbrush

This isn’t quite right. There were a small number of Catholics in the 36th Ulster Division, but it was established to recruit UVF members and so always struggled to shake off its sectarian character. The vast majority were Protestant Ulstermen and it largely maintained that makeup throughout the war. Plenty of Catholic Irishmen served in other divisions though, especially the 10th and other older divisions (Leinster, Munsters etc).

Thanks for the clarification. I was lead to believe that as the war progressed, the original recruiting criteria (for all divisions) were diluted and recruits went to where they were needed as casualty replacements. It certainly affected my Great Grandfathers brother (Great Great uncle??). He was underage at the start of the war when his brothers joined up, but when he was eligible he joined. All his brothers were in Yorkshire Regiments or none location based (Royal Engineers), and he ended up in the Manchester Regiment.

I still find it dreadfully sad that the sectarianism was carried on after death.

Well done op.
It is definitely a thing.
I was on a plane and the pilot introduced himself with an Irish accent.
Someone in front said He IIrish. That’s a worry. I just thought wtf.
My parents faced much prejudice when they came over.

Just to add, I'm Irish born and reared and appreciate the post.

Just to also add, I don't blame today's British for the sins of their fathers, I'm very fond of ye. I visit often!

What angers us is the ignorance, especially from a lot of elected officials regarding Ireland and the history of our country. MP's making statements that we should just join the commonwealth or back down on the border issue or they will block food trade to our country are just some of the examples. The GF Agreement was something that was hard won and can be unravelled in an instance. No one wants this.
Obviously every country comes with its own history but both our countries are so entwined, it seems crazy to us that this issue has not been at least thought of before ye decided to leave.

they will block food trade to our country

Bit close to the bone that one considering the history ..........

Hope you're ok OP after the trauma

To a pp who said their Irish mil (I think) didn't mind someone saying "throwing a paddy" that's probably because its not a phrase used by the Irish. I've only ever heard it used in the UK. It would be strange to hear an Irish person using a phrase that's a slur against them!

Someone said above that people are surprised that the education system in NI is the same as England. I don't think it's that unreasonable as Scotland is quite different (and the legal system is too).

It would help a lot if the BBC weren't so England-centric. They now have a habit of always saying things like "the NHS in England" but why do they never report on anything NHS Scotland, Wales or NI related as one example?

I've often watched Scottish or Northern Irish news on cable and then you get a bit more of a feel of other issues.

What angers us is the ignorance

it angers us too. I've said it so many times on here. How could you even call a referendum on EU membership when the GFA was predicated on EU membership? Cameron was either badly advised or not advised at all.

It would help a lot if the BBC weren't so England-centric. They now have a habit of always saying things like "the NHS in England" but why do they never report on anything NHS Scotland, Wales or NI related as one example?

That's like Dublin here in the ROI. On the news it's always "Dublin and the rest of Ireland"

Morality I experienced much the same during my 4 years in England, I'm also from NI, with a Cork born grandfather, I was raised Protestant but been atheist for years My ex's mum used to come out with all sorts of tripe, she didn't mean any harm but was just ignorant and full of stereotypical nonsense, I got fed up correcting her.

Moving on and as for the IRA, might be worth looking into how many of their victims were Irish (N.Irish). I can tell you it was a hell of lot, more so than English/Scottish/Welsh. Anti-Irish sentiment was around long before the IRA (of the 1920s or of the Troubles) appeared on the scene.

As a pp mentioned with regards the Famine, it was much more than just the failure of the potato crop and plenty to do with the actions of landlords. If any of you are ever visiting NI I recommend a trip to the Ulster American Folk Park in Omagh to learn about it. I'm sure there are similar museums throughout the island.

Thank you for starting this thread, OP. It’s been really interesting.

Regarding the border issue - I thought that there has to be some kind of border there post Brexit (unless a free trade deal is agreed upon) because otherwise, goods could quite easily be transported VAT and Duty free from EU to Britain via NI, and back again. The brexiteers don’t want that do they? They want to control all the borders - not just most of them!

Landlords wanting 'no blacks, no dogs, no Irish' is not that long ago.

OP thank you for acknowledging your error.

The 36th division was made up of UVF men and Republicans from Ulster, many used to wear sashes over their uniforms so they arnt completely seperate from the Orange Order, much as I hate them

My former college was so rammed with Northern Irish undergraduates, apparently students used affectionately to call it “Campbell College Cambridge” (after the school in Belfast).

So, yeah - “pig-thick Irish” - sure. Ignorami who think that can jog on.

Morality in my experience you are correct that we English know very little about Ireland or Northern Ireland. I certainly wasn't taught anythjng related to Ireland at school, history was English. As I recall, I first learned of NI when the civil rights movement became very active in the 1960s and was utterly shocked that a bit of Ireland 'belonged' to Britain and RCs there couldn't vote. Subsequent developments were equally shocking. As far as I know, most people leaving education here will be vague about Irish history unless they have a family connection. This may be the case with Wales and Scotland too, little reference to either in the curriculum. It may have improved now but seems to have held true for my English educated grandsons. Lots of WW2 but nothing about our neighbours.

ethelfleda that's one of the main points. They say they won't stick one up, they don't care. If the EU or Irish Republic do then it's their problem. They're claiming they can use technology to bypass any form of a border. They just never gave the North any thought and refuse to admit it, just pass the buck to the Paddys and the meanies in the EU instead, not our problem. 😡😡😡