To apologise for arguing that discrimination against the Irish 'isn't a thing'

[wheresmymojo]

I was on an AIBU thread months and months ago where someone was talking about 'Irish twins' (used for two children born 12 months or less apart).

I argued that it wasn't offensive because Irish people aren't discriminated against. That I've never, ever seen any disparaging remarks about Irish people except in jest, etc.

Anyway...I just wanted to say: I was wrong.
I should've listened more to the Irish people on the thread and I've learned my lesson there.

With the discussions about the NI border due to Brexit I've been reading up on the relevant history (back to before the famine) and I've been shocked at how our English Govt treated your people. I've been very naive about the degree to which English education misses out some lots of inconvenient parts of our history.

I also commented on several FB threads after the recent Bloody Sunday prosecution and was shocked at some of the comments of other people.

So I was wrong, and I apologise (even if no-one reads this - it's been playing on my conscience).

Really interesting thread, thanks OP.

Irish, living in UK for last decade, married to an English man - it horrifies me how DH and I were taught such different versions of our collective history and interactions.

But my biggest gripe is 'throwing a paddy'

I corrected someone at work recently on this, politely pointing out that, although I was sure there was no real mal-intent, I found it offensive. The recipient of the feedback made out like I was completely over-reacting. In reality I was calmly just correcting her on something I hear so frequently, so she wouldn't use it again. My bad.

I haaaaaate "throwing a paddy" agteacht. I live in NI, so have never come across it in the wild, only ever on here.

Gosh, it sounds so ignorant but I actually never realised that ‘throwing a paddy’ was an anti-Irish thing to say! Never made the connection!

As I said upthread, DH (Irish) and I (I’m English) have been watching a lot of documentaries and doing a lot of research on Irish history. It started when I wanted to know exactly why Brexit contravenes the GFA and ended up with us going all the way back to the Norman invasion in the 1100s up to present times. What I have learned has shocked and horrified me. Simone upthread has been saying that it doesn’t help anyone to bring it up... you can’t change the past etc and we cannot be blamed for what our ancestors did... that may be partly true but we shouldn’t just forget about it either. We need to know about our past to make sure we can stop things like this happening again in the future.

We were travelling a few years back and in Kigali in Rwanda, they have a genocide museum paying tribute to some of the victims of the 1994 genocide. It was a very solemn place. But it was there precisely to educate visitors on how genocide starts, how people can turn against other people so violently beginning with something as simple as using dehumanising language (google the steps of genocide) so a to stop it happening again.

Hats off to you OP. You have righted a wrong and in my opinion your conscience should be clear.

I believe we should all look forward and not have grudges based on the past - a little less ignorance of the history of the British Isles might help us do that with more respect though. You’ve done a good thing and your Irish acquaintances will appreciate it.

The Open University has some pertinent material in the module A225 which covers the Irish Famine if anyone interested - I'm sure there is a free openlearn course that goes alongside it.

Am doing a module on Welsh history next term,

@efelda - you are so very right

Hi there, I had to reply to say thankyou for your kind word OP. As an Irish person it means a lot and I respect the way you decided to educate yourself on our history. The way England treated Ireland through the ages is something that is taught to every man, woman and child here. The legacy of those days is still known by every family.
We lost a lot including the ability to speak our own language. Such a shame.
For years we have been the butt end of jokes.
Thankyou for taking the time to help set the record straight.

Please remember they represented one side of a civil war. They weren’t fighting themselves. They also weren’t supported by all Catholics.

And were supported by some Protestants too initially.

Thanks, that's all

Irish in England here, fair play to you OP.

As to others on this thread. The conflation of the IRA and Irish people is repulsive no matter how many times you try to justify it as someone else thinking it.

I’m English living in Northern Ireland and since moving here I have been appalled and ashamed to learn what has happened here over the centuries, which I had no idea about. I was brought up being taught a lot of racist attitudes against Irish people as if it was funny, the people teaching me that still have no clue about Irish history - still referring to the Republic as Southern Ireland for instance, not understanding and feeling offended at historical anti English placards in museums, and to top it all off calling the fact we have different bank notes here stupid and ‘Irish’ as if it’s an insult. I think I care so much now firstly because I live here and have educated myself, and secondly because my husband and my daughter are Northern Irish, I don’t want them subjected to this abuse. I have found some of the rhetoric about NI and Brexit shameful. Sorry, that turned into a bit of a rant! Thank you for welcoming me to this beautiful country, even though where I am from has commuted appalling acts.

I know that conflating the Irish with the IRA is wrong, but I kind of get what Rainbowjelly was trying to get at. Informed people will know they're not the same but the less informed will conflate the both, it happens. And piling on the poster won't change the fact that the ill informed will do that.

Thank you for your post OP, it takes big balls to admit when you’re wrong!

Irish dad (born in the UK to immigrant parents) and a half Irish/half English mother here.

My dads father came over from the south in the 40’s but had to travel through Belfast, he stayed overnight and the landlady came to warm him in the small hours that people knew he was a catholic and they were coming to grab him so he had to run and hide until he was due to get out of the city later that afternoon. He was a clever man who could only get manual work because of the racism he faced over here. My dad was harassed by the police during the bombings in the 70’s as were many of his Irish friends.

My mum’s dad came over at 14 and worked in the mines in Scotland, he was extremely lucky (as pointed out to him by his older colleagues) that his passport hadn’t been stamped correctly and he could travel freely anywhere in the country. He decided to go south to where his aunt has moved to after she’d married an English soldier. When he got here she, and her new family, treated him appallingly and constantly tried to get him in trouble. They reported him to the police and he had to go and sign in with them every day. When he married my grandmother he wasn’t allowed to have his name on their council house because of his background. The ILs of two of my aunts looked down on him because of his heritage and in hindsight are massively racist tbh.

I was born in the mid 80’s and I’m the second generation to be born here and even I’ve faced prejudice in my lifetime. I’ve had taunts at school and been told my family must be part of the IRA all from children, but where did they learn that from? I’ve been told I’m pretty clever for an Irish kid, my ILs have insinuated I’m a displaced person/traveller because of course all Irish immigrants are aren’t we?!? Even at work I’ve had comments, someone once said ‘of course you’re a bit backwards with a name life that’ after I’d made a mistake!

Those are just the tips of the iceberg tbh

And my husband wonders why I resent the country I was born to? Why it riles me to know my children wont learn in school of the awful things done to their ancestors? If I could pack up and move back I’d do it in a heartbeat

England did not conquer Scotland, for the love of sanity.

The British empire aso contained a disproportiantely large amount of Irish and Scottish soldiers and administrators, so no it wasnt all the English. Wellington was Irish, Hague Scottish the bookends of 'pax britannia'.

Thank you OP. I will never forget the first time I travelled to England aged 18, I didn't realise I was supposed to take my rucksack off the coach for customs so had to go back to get it and was called a stupid Irish bitch by the customs guy. It was the 80s but I had rather naively assumed that anti-Irish in the UK feeling was history.

Thank you for being honest, OP. I appreciate that you took the time to read up on Ireland and understand our history better. I think if more British people did that, not only with Ireland but with all of the countries that were formerly part of the Empire they could learn a lot (although they’d be fairly busy reading for a few years...).

From the point of view of most minorities, what hurts the most is when people in a position of privilege make bigoted comments without trying to educate themselves. In Ireland we learn about the British point of view by default, through British TV shows and books and just the general cultural hegemony that the UK has as a larger English speaking country. The flow in the other direction has improved in recent years (Fr. Ted, Moone Boy, Derry Girls) but there is still imbalance. To be fair to British people, they have to seek out information on their own steam whereas the rest of us get inundated with British culture whether we like it or not.

*we conquered Scotland and forced them to join the UK in 1707

Nonsense.*

What’s the saying? The elites of Scotland were bought and sold for English gold! It’s conveniently forgotten that there were riots on the streets across Scotland when the Act of Union was signed.

There was also a potato famine in Scotland but due to the different relationship (less detached) of the ruling classes, who saw it for themselves, more help was given so fewer people in Scotland died.

You can’t blame the current generations for the wrongdoings of the British state but, it doesn’t help that Brexit seems to have fired up a ridiculous imperialist notion in some English people. Some people need to get a grip and realise that the British empire was pretty awful to millions of people and we didn’t single handily win the Second World War.

webuiltthisbuffet well said. There was no famine. It was not brought about by natural causes/failed harvest.

Wellington was Irish,

Wellington was Anglo-Irish, one of the English elite who colonised Ireland.

The British empire aso contained a disproportiantely large amount of Irish and Scottish soldiers and administrators, so no it wasnt all the English. Wellington was Irish, Hague Scottish the bookends of 'pax britannia'.

Also, yes there were a lot of Irish soldiers in the British army, but that wasn't because they all thought it was great to go and help the English with their colonising. Read up about economic conscription, press ganging, and the reasons poor men (from all countries) joined up/were forced to join up. And once again, you can not compare them to elites such as Wellington.

It's very much present and future as Brexit is about to fuck with our lives and no one in GB (including the Government!) seems to care.

Please don’t lump together the 48% of Britain who voted against this shit show with the other 52% that did.

Remainers care very much and are sick to the stomach not just about much how this will affect our lives - no one yet knows just how bad it will be - but we also deeply care about how it affects our European neighbours. This goes well beyond queues at the border, tariffs etc when families are being ripped apart. My personal values will no longer align with the UK’s ‘official’ stance - it’s hugely depressing.

Remainers care very much and are sick to the stomach not just about much how this will affect our lives - no one yet knows just how bad it will be - but we also deeply care about how it affects our European neighbours. This goes well beyond queues at the border, tariffs etc when families are being ripped apart. My personal values will no longer align with the UK’s ‘official’ stance - it’s hugely depressing

Yep. This pretty much sums up how I feel too - well put!

I'm amused by all the English blaming here, in particular the PP who are trying to paint Scots as blame-free for any of the Troubles. The Troubles were originally caused by the bigotry of the Scots Protestant descendants who arrived during the plantations and their oppression of the Catholic Irish.

Go to anywhere in West Scotland/Glasgow and watch what happens during a Celtic v Rangers game, have a quick check about how many Orange Lodges there are in Ayrshire.

Go have a quick trawl through the archives and see how much vitriol was aimed at the Scottish Regiments when they did tours of the Province as compared to the line English and Welsh Regiments.

I will concede though that the whole subject isn't taught well in English Schools, however its a massively complex subject that is still very raw and owning the narrative is something that all sides in the equation know and understand very very well.

I'm English but lived in Belfast for seven years on and off.

Gosh, it sounds so ignorant but I actually never realised that ‘throwing a paddy’ was an anti-Irish thing to say! Never made the connection

Me too, even with an Irish family. My husband has used it in front of my mother (in relation to my son when he was a toddler) and she didn't say anything.

I was talking to him about this thread and saying that in the Enid Blyton books, if you were Irish you were a redhead and hot-tempered. Gosh those books were racist and sexist and everything else!

Remainers care very much and are sick to the stomach not just about much how this will affect our lives - no one yet knows just how bad it will be - but we also deeply care about how it affects our European neighbours. This goes well beyond queues at the border, tariffs etc when families are being ripped apart. My personal values will no longer align with the UK’s ‘official’ stance - it’s hugely depressing

Yes.

Furious, Protestant v Catholic enmity noted. My blood ran cold last week when I saw a marching band accompanying the Brexit march last week. On the streets of London, god help us. Hope never to see it again.